Tensor differentiation. Help with a step.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differentiation of tensors, specifically the transition from equation (32) to equation (34) in a paper related to general relativity. Participants are exploring the implications of using covariant derivatives versus ordinary derivatives in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the differentiation of tensors and seeks help with specific equations from a paper.
  • Another participant explains the use of the product rule for differentiating a function of coordinates, providing a detailed breakdown of the steps involved.
  • There is a discussion about the notation used for covariant derivatives and ordinary derivatives, with one participant noting a potential inconsistency in the definitions provided in the text.
  • A later reply clarifies that when differentiating a scalar quantity, there is no distinction between ordinary and covariant derivatives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mechanics of differentiating scalar quantities, but there is some disagreement regarding the notation and definitions of derivatives as presented in the source material. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of the derivative notation.

Contextual Notes

There are references to attachments that may contain additional context or definitions, but these are not visible in the thread. The discussion also highlights potential confusion arising from the use of different derivative notations in the text.

Sagar_C
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I am not very used to jugglery of tensors...I am learning it all now-a-days...I am trying to read a paper...and stuck at a point..:( ...It will be of great help if someone could help me get at eqn (34) from eqn (32) (cf. attached.) d/d\tau=u^\alpha\partial_\alpha (I think) and semi-colon is for covariant derivative and "[]" are for cyclic permutation of indices just like in Bianci relation.

P.S.: Hope I am not breaking any forum rules as this probably doesn't count as homework.
 

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Sagar_C said:
I am not very used to jugglery of tensors...I am learning it all now-a-days...I am trying to read a paper...and stuck at a point..:( ...It will be of great help if someone could help me get at eqn (34) from eqn (32) (cf. attached.) d/d\tau=u^\alpha\partial_\alpha (I think) and semi-colon is for covariant derivative and "[]" are for cyclic permutation of indices just like in Bianci relation.

P.S.: Hope I am not breaking any forum rules as this probably doesn't count as homework.

Hmm. It doesn't seem to be a very big gap.

If Q is a function of coordinates, then \dfrac{d}{d\tau} Q = \dfrac{dx^{\gamma}}{d\tau} \nabla_{\gamma} Q. So in the particular case Q = w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}, we use the product rule to get
\dfrac{d}{d\tau}(w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}) = <br /> ((\nabla_{\gamma} w_{\alpha \beta}) \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta} (\nabla_{\gamma} \xi^{\alpha}) \eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha} (\nabla_{\gamma} \eta^{\beta})) \dfrac{dx^{\gamma}}{d\tau}

Using the semicolon notation, and using \dfrac{dx^{\gamma}}{d\tau}= u^{\gamma}, this becomes:

\dfrac{d}{d\tau}(w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}) = <br /> (w_{\alpha \beta ; \gamma}\ \xi^{\alpha}\ \eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta}\ \xi^{\alpha}_{; \gamma}\ \eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta}\ \xi^{\alpha}\ \eta^{\beta}_{; \gamma}) u^{\gamma}

The last step doesn't have anything to do with differentiation; it's just a fact about tensors: If w_{\alpha \beta ; \gamma} is anti-symmetric in the first two indices, then w_{\alpha \beta ; \gamma} = 3 w_{[\alpha \beta ; \gamma]} - w_{\gamma \alpha ; \beta} - w_{\beta \gamma ; \alpha}
 
stevendaryl said:
Hmm. It doesn't seem to be a very big gap.

If Q is a function of coordinates, then \dfrac{d}{d\tau} Q = \dfrac{dx^{\gamma}}{d\tau} \nabla_{\gamma} Q. So in the particular case Q = w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}, we use the product rule to get
\dfrac{d}{d\tau}(w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}) = <br /> ((\nabla_{\gamma} w_{\alpha \beta}) \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta} (\nabla_{\gamma} \xi^{\alpha}) \eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha} (\nabla_{\gamma} \eta^{\beta})) \dfrac{dx^{\gamma}}{d\tau}

Using the semicolon notation, and using \dfrac{dx^{\gamma}}{d\tau}= u^{\gamma}, this becomes:

\dfrac{d}{d\tau}(w_{\alpha \beta} \xi^{\alpha}\eta^{\beta}) = <br /> (w_{\alpha \beta ; \gamma}\ \xi^{\alpha}\ \eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta}\ \xi^{\alpha}_{; \gamma}\ \eta^{\beta}<br /> + w_{\alpha \beta}\ \xi^{\alpha}\ \eta^{\beta}_{; \gamma}) u^{\gamma}

The last step doesn't have anything to do with differentiation; it's just a fact about tensors: If w_{\alpha \beta ; \gamma} is anti-symmetric in the first two indices, then w_{\alpha \beta ; \gamma} = 3 w_{[\alpha \beta ; \gamma]} - w_{\gamma \alpha ; \beta} - w_{\beta \gamma ; \alpha}

Many thanks. Actually, I should have been more specific. What I am really confused with is how covariant derivative appeared. The source of my confusion is that earlier in the text it seemed to be defined that "d/d\tau" is for simple derivative (see attachment 1) and "D/d\tau" is for the covariant one (attachment 2)! And all the time they are in general relativistic formalism...

P.S.: Is it because the term which is being differentiated is actually a scalar and so ordinary or covariant derivatives are just the same?
 

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Last edited:
Sagar_C said:
Many thanks. Actually, I should have been more specific. What I am really confused with is how covariant derivative appeared. The source of my confusion is that earlier in the text it seemed to be defined that "d/d\tau" is for simple derivative (see attachment 1) and "D/d\tau" is for the covariant one (attachment 2)! And all the time they are in general relativistic formalism...

P.S.: Is it because the term which is being differentiated is actually a scalar and so ordinary or covariant derivatives are just the same?

Right. If you are taking the derivative of a scalar quantity, then there is no difference between an ordinary derivative and a covariant derivative.
 
Edited: Wrong post! Sorry!
 
Last edited:

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