News Texas to Charge Cheaper In State College Tuition to Illegal Immigrants

AI Thread Summary
Texas plans to offer reduced college tuition rates to illegal immigrants, sparking debate on the financial implications for taxpayers and legal students. Supporters argue that investing in education for immigrants could ultimately reduce long-term welfare costs, while critics express concern that it shifts financial burdens onto legal residents and taxpayers. The discussion highlights the tension between humanitarian concerns for immigrants and the perceived injustice of subsidizing education for those who entered the country illegally. Some participants advocate for stricter border control and temporary work visas instead of educational subsidies. The effectiveness and fairness of this tuition policy remain contentious points in the ongoing immigration debate.
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Hey, if they're going to come here anyway, we might as well give them a way to better themselves. I'd rather have legions of immigrants coming here to get college educations than coming here to live off welfare programs.

- Warren
 
The question is, what happens after words? These people are coming here illegally, but the important point is that they are staying here. If they were getting an education and then bolting, that would be a bigger problem. But since they are staying, I don't take so much issue with that.

However, its still a big problem because they are taking away money from taxpayers and the like. Sure, the school is making them pay less, but now the school is losing money. They have to pay for teachers, electric bills, etc. When illegal students pay less tuition, more burdon now falls on the school and legal students (who might see a tuition increase). Personally, I would not be happy paying more tuition to support illegal students getting a college degree.
 
I feel sorry for legal citizens from other states who have to pay "out of state tuition". I'D RATHER GIVE THEM THE BREAK! So much for the argument, "They're only here to work... to do the work THAT AMERICANS WON'T DO!"
 
cyrusabdollahi said:
However, its still a big problem because they are taking away money from taxpayers and the like. Sure, the school is making them pay less, but now the school is losing money. They have to pay for teachers, electric bills, etc. When illegal students pay less tuition, more burdon now falls on the school and legal students (who might see a tuition increase). Personally, I would not be happy paying more tuition to support illegal students getting a college degree.

AMEN TO THAT!

SIGNED,

TEXAS TAXPAYER
 
cyrusabdollahi said:
However, its still a big problem because they are taking away money from taxpayers and the like.

Would you rather help subsidize four years of education, or 50+ years of welfare?

I think the crux of this program is the idea that investing a little money in immigrants' education today will save taxpayers a whole hell of a lot more money down the line. The argument sounds plausible, but whether or not it actually holds water has probably yet to be seen.

- Warren
 
Id rather shut down the boarders, which is what should be done. While its not a PC solution, it is the right thing to do.

Im all for helping others, but not at the expense of hurting myself.

When it comes to illegals and welfare, I have no mercy for them. They should be deported. Ill stay quiet if your illegal so long as your working. The instant you stop working your otta here.
 
The laws should apply equally to everybody.

On the one end we have bright international students who have to go on a lottery to get an H1 visa to work in the US legally and on the other hand we have people who break the law by illegally crossing the borders and they get freebees.

No that is not justice, it is grave injustice!
 
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chroot said:
Would you rather help subsidize four years of education, or 50+ years of welfare?

I think the crux of this program is the idea that investing a little money in immigrants' education today will save taxpayers a whole hell of a lot more money down the line. The argument sounds plausible, but whether or not it actually holds water has probably yet to be seen.

- Warren

I'd rather subsidize an efficient way to identify and deport them.

I already subsidize their education and welfare. If our politicians have their way I will also be subsidizing their retirement as well...
 
  • #10
cyrusabdollahi said:
Im all for helping others, but not at the expense of hurting myself.

Let's say your taxes go up a buck a year (I assume you're in a quite low tax bracket to begin with) so someone else will get a chance to earn a college degree and make something of him/herself. The help-to-hurt ratio is far over one in this case. Where do you draw the line? Would you give a buck to help a poor family get out of poverty? Is that too much hurt for you to tolerate? What about ten bucks a year? Or fifteen?

(I'm not attacking you, I'm just playing devil's advocate.)

When it comes to illegals and welfare, I have no mercy for them. They should be deported. Ill stay quiet if your illegal so long as your working. The instant you stop working your otta here.

It's not a bad argument, and I understand it. The problem is a greater one than just the US, however. If we just throw these people back over the fence into Mexico, they're going to live in poverty and die young. It's not so much a matter of US vs. Mexico as it is a humanitarian issue. These people have no chance in Mexico. They cannot find work. They cannot feed their children. They didn't ask to be born in a country that cannot find work for its citizens any more than you asked to be born into relative prosperity.

I am generally on your side about welfare, though. If they can manage to feed their kids in Mexico, maybe they should just stay in Mexico. On the other hand, I'm of the opinion that education is one of the wisest investments a person (or a government) can ever make.

- Warren
 
  • #11
MeJennifer said:
On the one end we have bright international students who have to go on a lottery to get an H1 visa to work in the US legally and on the other hand we have people who break the law by illegally crossing the borders and they get freebees.

No that is not justice, it is grave injustice!

That's an excellent point, but it's misguided. The people who get H1 visas are brilliant people -- who already have educations -- who have no trouble finding work in, e.g., India. They feed their families just fine over there, often working for the same companies they'd work for in the US. Offering subsidized state undergraduate education to people who have graduated with 98% marks in engineering from IIT doesn't make any sense.

They just don't get paid as much there, so they can't afford to buy houses made out of solid slabs of marble and pay a staff of ten people to drive their cars and make their food. Boo hoo.

The people crossing the border from Mexico are not geniuses with high-tech educations -- they are people who can't find any work, even cleaning bathrooms, to feed their kids.

- Warren
 
  • #12
But in your hypothetical you need an important distinction. No, I would not give money to help feed illegal imigrants in this country. We already have something to do that, namely international aid. We send their country aid for that reason.

We can help as much as we can with that aid. But its not fair to ask us to now give more money because they are taking over our country. Its not just giving them a simple extra dollar. They are taking up seats in the university, taking up space in hospitals, burdening the police departments, bringing over gangs (like MS-13).

They really need to go. If they want to work, they should have a temp work visa and then be sent back.
 
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  • #13
It's not a bad argument, and I understand it. The problem is a greater one than just the US, however. If we just throw these people back over the fence into Mexico, they're going to live in poverty and die young. It's not so much a matter of US vs. Mexico as it is a humanitarian issue. These people have no chance in Mexico. They cannot find work. They cannot feed their children. They didn't ask to be born in a country that cannot find work for its citizens any more than you asked to be born into relative prosperity.

Yes, but I did not ask to pay to feed the entire world either. These people need to stop having kids in their own country, and their country needs to get rid of their corruption and help its own people. I am not going to pay to help others because its own government can't do its job. Case in point, Iraq.

Its harsh because its necessary. If we allow this to happen, when does it stop. Before you know it, we will be paying the entire world money and become broke.
 
  • #14
chroot said:
These people have no chance in Mexico. They cannot find work. They cannot feed their children. They didn't ask to be born in a country that cannot find work for its citizens any more than you asked to be born into relative prosperity.

You couldn't be MORE WRONG! It costs a LOT OF MONEY TO GO TO SCHOOL IN TEXAS, even for residents. That kind of money goes a long way in Mexico!

When they are admited to Texas A&M or UT or Texas State or wherever, the classes are all in english. They have to speak english! Sound like the Mexican underclass to you?

These are NOT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CUTTING YOUR GRASS -- OR THEIR KIDS!

Their kids are already legal citizens for the most part. THESE ARE CAPABLE PEOPLE, TAKING SAT'S AND PASSING ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS! They are just here illegally! People in Mexico have plenty of opportunity, just not all the benefits and higher salaries that are found in the US.

The richest (or the second-richest) man in the world is a Mexican FCS!
 
  • #15
cyrusabdollahi said:
But in your hypothetical you need an important distinction. No, I would not give money to help feed illegal imigrants in this country. We already have something to do that, namely international aid. We send their country aid for that reason.

An excellent point. Hopefully the aid we send to the governments of countries like Mexico actually makes it all the way to its citizens. I suspect it isn't that efficient a process, though.

They really need to go. If they want to work, they should have a temp work visa and then be sent back.

I'm very much in support of the temporary worker visa program. I think it makes a lot of sense to allow them to live here as long as they're working and "putting in their fair share."

What about giving them temporary student visas? What about sending them back to Mexico as soon as they graduate? What about giving them a break on tuition, since even USD $1,200 a semester -- a trivial amount for the average US family -- is an intolerable financial hardship for the average Mexican family?

- Warren
 
  • #16
cyrusabdollahi said:
Its harsh because its necessary. If we allow this to happen, when does it stop. Before you know it, we will be paying the entire world money and become broke.

We'll become broke by trying to beat them up, too. We've spent over a trillion dollars in the war in Iraq. That's $3,000 for every man, woman, and child in the entire country over the last couple of years. Isn't that a bigger waste of money than educating some Mexican kids?

- Warren
 
  • #17
But what your proposing is to throw money at a problem rather than fix the problem. There will always be mexicans coming to this country and they will be using up our money more and more as time goes on.

The only way to fix the problem is to stop them from entering our boarders.
 
  • #18
chemisttree said:
Their kids are already legal citizens for the most part. THESE ARE CAPABLE PEOPLE, TAKING SAT'S AND PASSING ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS! They are just here illegally!

No reason to shout, chemisttree.

If that's really true, and this program is really just offering cheap tuition to people who once lived in Mexico but are now virtually indistinguishable from from US citizens then sure, it makes no sense. I don't think anyone would see that as sensible.

- Warren
 
  • #19
We can't support a country of people just becasue its government is corrupt.
 
  • #20
cyrusabdollahi said:
The only way to fix the problem is to stop them from entering our boarders.

That would a solution to our problem, it's true. But we could never stop them from entering our borders, so it isn't a realistic solution. No one has ever made a realistic proposal for how we could stop the immigrants from entering the country. It would cost an absolute fortune to really make the border impenetrable -- far more than it would cost to educate some Mexican kids in some el-cheapo US universities. If all you're concerned about is your tax bill, blockading the border isn't a good plan, either.

- Warren
 
  • #21
cyrusabdollahi said:
The only way to fix the problem is to stop them from entering our boarders.
Exactly right!

We do not need a 100% secure border.
But what we need is a political willingness to actually do something about the security of our borders. But unfortunately too many voters have this "just close one eye, since they are poor and have no job" attitude. With that attitude we might as well welcome half of the African continent.
 
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  • #22
MeJennifer said:
Exactly right!

Again, this "solution" is just sophistry. We can't stop them, at least not without spending an ungodly amount of taxpayer money.

- Warren
 
  • #23
You know, some illegals actually sued a farmer because they tried to enter the country illegally and the farmer did not have water fountains and some died of dehydration!
 
  • #24
The boarders needs to have the US national guard protecting it with M-16s. Now this may sound very harsh, but if you cross, there should be the possibility of you getting shot at or put in a detainment camp. This is a national boarder were talking about. Not just walking across the street to a friends house.

Then you take all of them in the detainment camp and ship them to a mexican jail and let mexico deal with it.
 
  • #25
cyrusabdollahi said:
But what your proposing is to throw money at a problem rather than fix the problem. There will always be mexicans coming to this country and they will be using up our money more and more as time goes on.

The only way to fix the problem is to stop them from entering our boarders.
Our tight borders are the reason that the immigrant population is booming. By making it more difficult for illegals to go home, visit their families, and return, the US gov't is making it more attractive for them to move here, get some bogus IDs, blend in and stay. The border is still relatively porous in places, but the tighter it gets, the longer illegal immigrants will stay. This situation is just what some industries want, including meat-packing plants, chicken raising operations, etc - a hard-working, cheap labor force that will not protest bad working conditions, long hours, etc, because they need the jobs, and because they know that they can easily be ratted out if they complain. These companies know that they're hiring illegals, and they like it that way.
 
  • #26
Our system has no check and balances. Tell me why illegal immigrants can get social security cards, drivers licenses, credit cards and bank accounts?
 
  • #27
chroot said:
No reason to shout, chemisttree.
- Warren

My bad. (chiseling off Caps Lock key)
 
  • #28
turbo-1 said:
Our tight borders are the reason that the immigrant population is booming. By making it more difficult for illegals to go home, visit their families, and return, the US gov't is making it more attractive for them to move here, get some bogus IDs, blend in and stay. The border is still relatively porous in places, but the tighter it gets, the longer illegal immigrants will stay. This situation is just what some industries want, including meat-packing plants, chicken raising operations, etc - a hard-working, cheap labor force that will not protest bad working conditions, long hours, etc, because they need the jobs, and because they know that they can easily be ratted out if they complain. These companies know that they're hiring illegals, and they like it that way.

How can the population be booming if less are entering our boarders. That means the influx has be stopped (which it should). Now the job of the government should be to pass laws that fines the hell out of anyone hiring illegals. They should be flushed right back out of the country on a case by case basis.
 
  • #29
cyrusabdollahi said:
The boarders needs to have the US national guard protecting it with M-16s.

How much will this solution cost? Thousands and thousands of miles of border, at least four or five guards per shift per mile... $100k total salary including overhead... that comes out to $3.6 billion dollars a year by my estimate. And it might not even work (border guards are susceptible to bribes, too).

And you're concerned about the gov't paying a few thousand dollars a year for a small number of students to go to college?

What's amazing to me is that people pay taxes to help other people's kids go to school all the time, without any hesitation. I paid $35k in federal and state taxes last year, and have no kids. I'm not that unusual. So people have no problem paying for other peoples' kids' education, so long as those kids were born on the north side of a fence erected on a boundary decided by a land purchase made hundreds of years ago.

If those people were born on the south side of that fence, though, whoa! Send those thieving bastards back to the hole where they came from!

- Warren
 
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  • #30
MeJennifer said:
Our system has no check and balances. Tell me why illegal immigrants can get social security cards, drivers licenses, credit cards and bank accounts?

Because they want decent jobs and decent lives. Some people think they're entitled to such things just by being human. Other people get pretty caught up in the whole fence deal.

- Warren
 
  • #31
cyrusabdollahi said:
Now the job of the government should be to pass laws that fines the hell out of anyone hiring illegals. They should be flushed right back out of the country on a case by case basis.

<sarcasm> Now THAT will sure help your wallet get fatter! </sarcasm>

- Warren
 
  • #32
Although its not pretty (or humane), putting landmines between the boarder woud solve the problem.
 
  • #33
chroot said:
Because they want decent jobs and decent lives. Some people think they're entitled to such things just by being human. Other people get pretty caught up in the whole fence deal.

- Warren


Thats fine, then they should fight to end corruption in their country and get a job over there.
 
  • #34
cyrusabdollahi said:
Although its not pretty (or humane), putting landmines between the boarder woud solve the problem.

Solve what problem, exactly? The problem of these Mexican kids trying to get college educations? We should kill them en masse instead?

- Warren
 
  • #35
chroot said:
Because they want decent jobs and decent lives. Some people think they're entitled to such things just by being human. Other people get pretty caught up in the whole fence deal.
Then I suppose that you and I disagree with the meaning of decent. Breaking the law is not decent in my book.

If they want a decent life then they should abide by the laws. If they want to work and live in the US then they apply for a visa just as decent people do. You are not decent if you cut the line and try to get in illegally.

I know many people from different countries who would like to stay and work in the United States but they don't qualify, they accept that, they don't want to break the laws. Now that is decent!
 
  • #36
cyrusabdollahi said:
Thats fine, then they should fight to end corruption in their country and get a job over there.

Most Americans disapprove of their current President, yet they're having a pretty hard time getting him to do anything at all that they want him to do. And the US has one of the most functional governments on the planet, in terms of adjusting to the public's intent.

How exactly would you suggest that these poverty-stricken, uneducated Mexicans "fight" their government?

- Warren
 
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  • #37
chroot said:
Solve what problem, exactly?
The problem is that we have people breaking the law. And I suppose the other problem is that there are people who don't think that is a problem.

And then there are people in the US who have businesses that profit from hiring illegal immigrants.
 
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  • #38
MeJennifer said:
Then I suppose that you and I disagree with the meaning of decent. Breaking the law is not decent in my book.

<sarcasm> Ah, the old "the law is good... because... it's the law!" argument. Boy, that's a quality argument right there. </sarcasm>

- Warren
 
  • #39
MeJennifer said:
The problem is that we have people breaking the law. And I suppose the other problem is that there are people who don't think that is a problem.

I think the veracity of the law is the problem, not the people breaking the law. If you cannot understand this, I feel bad for you.

- Warren
 
  • #40
turbo-1 said:
Our tight borders are the reason that the immigrant population is booming. By making it more difficult for illegals to go home, visit their families, and return, the US gov't is making it more attractive for them to move here, get some bogus IDs, blend in and stay. The border is still relatively porous in places, but the tighter it gets, the longer illegal immigrants will stay.

This is the Last reason that illegals come to the US! I believe one reason that is a 'little' higher up on the list would be "#10,356. You get to go to college and pay in-state tuition; a benefit usually reserved for US citizens and legal Residents of Texas."

turbo-1 said:
The border is still relatively porous in places, but the tighter it gets, the longer illegal immigrants will stay.
OMG! At odds with yourself in the same post! We were supposed to have 'tight borders', remember? Your words, definitely not mine! Spoken like someone who has never been to TX, CA, AZ, NM or even seen it on a map! There are several thousand miles of border down here. Not so many Border Patrol agents! BTW there are also several thousand miles of border with Canada. Also not so many Border Patrol Agents. A congressman easily crossed the border from Mexico to Texas riding an Elephant accompanied by a Mexican Maraichi band. This only several miles from the 'official' border crossing staffed by not so many Border Patrol agents! Why such a stunt? He had observed an illegal crossing directly under an international bridge unchecked. Right under the nose of not so many Border Patrol agents! He chased the illegal down himself and apprehended him! Relatively porous? Come on!

turbo-1 said:
This situation is just what some industries want, including meat-packing plants, chicken raising operations, etc - a hard-working, cheap labor force that will not protest bad working conditions, long hours, etc, because they need the jobs, and because they know that they can easily be ratted out if they complain. These companies know that they're hiring illegals, and they like it that way.

Is this what some industries want? College educated illegals working cheap and without protest (see recent May day protest, er celebration)? When they graduate they will still be illegal! They will be trying for jobs as, say, a physicist, engineer, accountant, manager. Hits pretty close to home, right?

You can't be serious... please tell me you are not serious!
 
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  • #41
cyrusabdollahi said:
They should be flushed right back out of the country on a case by case basis.


Hmmmm. Sending illegals back to their country of origin by the case(load). Just might work! Certainly deny them the more obvious trappings that come from legal status!
 
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  • #42
Illegals here in Az are complaining because they have to pay out of state tuition.:rolleyes:
 
  • #43
chroot said:
Solve what problem, exactly? The problem of these Mexican kids trying to get college educations? We should kill them en masse instead?

- Warren


No, you are convolution two issues now. It would stop people from crossing the boarder without having to pay someone to watch the boarder all day long. If you walk into a landmine, you will die. You have no business walking in the land that's is not your country.

Do you just stroll into Mexico or Canada whenever and wherever you feel like it? You'd be in a mexican/candian jail if you tried to pull that stunt and promptly deported back to the US.
 
  • #44
chroot said:
Most Americans disapprove of their current President, yet they're having a pretty hard time getting him to do anything at all that they want him to do. And the US has one of the most functional governments on the planet, in terms of adjusting to the public's intent.

How exactly would you suggest that these poverty-stricken, uneducated Mexicans "fight" their government?

- Warren

We can help them, and that I would not mind supporting with government money. But in the end, yes, it is their responsiblity to change their country for the better. The same way its our responsibilty to hold bush et al accountable.


Your trying to put a band-aid on a problem that requires serious medical attention.
 
  • #45
chemisttree, your response to my post is a string of non-sequiturs and misstatements from end to end. When the border (yes cyrus, it is a BORDER, not a boarder) was relatively open, Mexicans passed relatively freely back and forth and they went home to live with their families off-season and came back when their work opportunities were best. Now, with the tighter borders and the threat of exportation, they have a greater incentive to stay here permanently. This is not a secret and it is the subject of extensive public debate.

Yes, companies engaged in agriculture, meat-packing , poultry, etc willingly hire illegal aliens and want them to continue to be present in this country. The administration is throwing them a sop by proposing that they can "sponsor" "guest workers" with no real rights or prospect of citizenship. Cheap labor that can be tossed off for any reason.

And yes, I have visited your part of the world, and I live in Maine, which with the exception of NH, is bordered by Canada, and we have our own immigration/trade/employment issues. We have large populations of itinerant farm workers, many from Mexico, Jamaica, etc. You are not alone, you do not have a unique overriding perspective on immigration that trumps the opinions of others, and your tactics in argumentation suggest that you would rather holler and strut instead of looking at the underlying causes of our immigration problem.
 
  • #46
Now, with the tighter borders and the threat of exportation, they have a greater incentive to stay here permanently. This is not a secret and it is the subject of extensive public debate.

The fact remains, it is a BORDER (did I get it right?). People are not free to come and go as they please. Now that they are inside the country, it is the job of our government and fellow citizens to have them removed and sent back to their country. They are here illegally.

This whole thing is a big mess. If you let them work here with a pass, now you open a new can of worms. They are not US citizens, so does US laws and regulations apply? Its just like GITMO all over again, but on an economic front.

The fact is, these people should be deported and legal mexicans should be given these jobs (if the want them), as full us citizens.

If you want to give them temp work passes, then we need to have a very clear set of rules and guidelines. For example, they have all the same rights as any US citizen in terms of work hours, working conditions etc; however, they don't have any right to minimum wage.

In other words, I am not willing to give illegal aliens the full rights of a US citizen if they work here with a permit (or illegally) because they are NOT US citizens and get an unfair advantage over other imigrants.
 
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  • #47
cyrusabdollahi said:
If you want to give them temp work passes, then we need to have a very clear set of rules and guidelines. For example, they have all the same rights as any US citizen in terms of work hours, working conditions etc; however, they don't have any right to minimum wage.

In other words, I am not willing to give illegal aliens the full rights of a US citizen if they work here with a permit (or illegally) because they are NOT US citizens and get an unfair advantage over other imigrants.
The agricultural combines want sub-citizen status for migrant workers with no rights, no benefits, no guarantee of a minimum wage, etc, and that's exactly what Bush and his administration want to give them. You apparently are not aware of the current federal regulations that exempt the employers of workers in any agricultural endeavor from length-of-workday restrictions and allows them to require extended workdays with NO requirement to pay any overtime. You might want to bone up on this stuff before getting too strident about how easy the immigrant laborers have it in the US. Itinerant farm laborers often work dawn-til-dark at jobs that you would never agree to do, at wages you would never agree to, and with no overtime nor access to health insurance or other benefits. This situation has developed over many years, and it is not as black-and-white, nor as easily resolvable as you have presented it, nor do our political hacks in DC ever address it honestly. Every pronouncement is aimed at appeasing an audience back home.
 
  • #48
Both migrant and illegal field works have left the fields for better jobs elsewhere.

Morning Edition, September 27, 2005 · California is facing what some are calling a dire shortage of farm workers to harvest the region's fruit and vegetables. Many farm workers have left the fields to take less-grueling, better-paying jobs in construction and other business sectors.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4865345

The argument that we need them to harvest our crops no longer holds water. They no longer want to harvest crops for minimum wage when they can start out as construction laborers at $8 to $10 per hour.

We do need to take control of the border. Drug smugglers and people smugglers are now the same people, Mexican drug gangs. Now the Mexican government has formed Grupo Beta, their job is to assist illegals who want to cross the border by forming staging areas.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050818-124840-9453r.htm

We have been playing catch and release for far too long. And we can not afford to import Mexico's social problems.
 
  • #49
Another fast-moving thread that I didn't read all of, but could someone clarify what this law actually does, please? The title of the thread (and article) says "illegal immigrants", but in the article itself it says "children of illegal immigrants", and those are two different things entirely if that implies the kids are actually citizens. Regardless of opinions on illegal immigration, if the kids were born here, they're citizens and need to be treated as such.
 
  • #50
russ_watters said:
Another fast-moving thread that I didn't read all of, but could someone clarify what this law actually does, please? The title of the thread (and article) says "illegal immigrants", but in the article itself it says "children of illegal immigrants", and those are two different things entirely if that implies the kids are actually citizens. Regardless of opinions on illegal immigration, if the kids were born here, they're citizens and need to be treated as such.

Technically, that is not actually true. It is a myth. Just because you happen to be born in the US does not grant you immediate citizenship. A lot of people believe that and some states might even ignorantly practice that but it is not true... now I have to find references :)
 

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