The Central Role of Consciousness in Physics

  • Thread starter Thanatos
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Originally posted by Mumeishi
Woah! There's some serious flaws in your argument there friend.
Premise 1: According to the materialist view, all things are either matter or energy.
Premise 2: Thought exists
Premise 3: Thought is 'obviously' not matter
Conclusion: Therefore thought is energy

First of all, there is a variety of materialist views. Anyway, to be more precise, there is only energy, since matter is just a particularform of energy (how does that affect your argument?)
First please read my reply to Tom above as you both put forth a number of the same arguments. Next that energy is all there is actually makes my point easier to make it we can agree that even within a materialistic paradigm, thought and thinking does exist.
Mentat would not allow me that luxury. I had to show that thoughts were the result of electrochemical activity of the brain and thus electrochemical energy, a result of material processes so that they would be allowed to exists in his materialistic world.


Secondly, the materialist view that all that exists is energy and matter is not necessarily correct. And is it clear that they mean that this is the only sort of property that exists - the only defining characteristics to describe reality, or could they just mean that this is the only fundamental sort of 'substance'? To illustrate my question, what is the difference between a 20kg mountain bike and a 20kg microwave oven? The answer is form, or organisation. What is the difference between a 1kJoule telephone message wishing you luck and a 1kJ telephone message of abuse? Again the answer is form, organisation or information.

I would argue that mental states are informational properties of the brain. It doesn't really matter what the brain is composed of, all that matters is the information it has and what it does with it.
Unfortunately information does not exist ether in mantat's materialistic world. A number of us have tried to get across that very point but were unable to.


I think you are confused. Matter does not produce energy. Matter is energy, and energy only changes form it is neither created nor destroyed.
I did not say, or at least mean to say, that matter produces energy'
What I meant was the the brain work with electrochemical energy and converts it or modifies this energy by impress or encoding information on it. In order to make any point or discuss at all with Mentat I was forced to argue totally within the strict materialistic view and limits that he created.



Hmmm... How would they interact anyway? By the way, energy is not 'spiritual' any more than matter is - it is 100% physical.
This I have not yet figured out myself. I had enough problem coming up with how the subjective realm of thought can effect the objective material realm of matter.



Like what? Anecdotes don't count for much in the world of science, except inspiration to start collecting real data parhaps.

That is why this is philosophy and not science. This is the philosophy section of the Physics forum and not one of the scientific
sections or boards.
 
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This thread in this forum has a lot of pros and cons. All of our own opinions are based on who we are and what we have read and obsorbed and accepted in our lifetime for one reason or another, be they from what ever source. There is a lot of important minds out there that agree and disagree with many of us.

Let me quote the ideas of the eminent theoretical physicist David Bohm, he was one of Einsteins old collaborators.

He sees things as implicit holgrafic order. This discovery has converted holografics in a fundamental element of the scientific world. His inspired work on holgrafics has created a model of the universe envolving multiple paradoxes in cuantum mechanics. According to Bohm the world we perceive through the five sences and the nervous system with or without the use of scientific instruments only represents a small fragment of reality. From his point of view what we percieve constituts explained order, a partial aspect of a larger matrix that denominates implied order. In other words what we perceive as reality is similar to a holgrafic projection coming from a superior matrix. So the vision of Bohm of implied order is described at a level that is unacessable to our senses. Read his book "The totality of implicit order" a vision that offers modern physics the existing relationship between consciousness and matter. Bohm says the reality is a total reality, coherant and implied in a interminable process of change called holomovement. From this point of view all structures in the universe are only abstract. So it is that no matter how hard we try to describe objects, entities or events, we have to come to the conclusion admitting that all are derived from a indifinable unrecognizable totality. According to Bohm the holografic theory that illustrates the idea that energy, light and matter are all composites of pacekts of interference waves that interchange information between all other energy, light and matter directly or indirectly that they have made contact. So each fragment of energy and matter constitute a microcosmos enclosed in the totality of it all. So should we not surmise then, that life in terms of inanimate matter. Matter and life<>matter and consciousness
are abstractions of holmovement, that is to say abstrations of a indivisable totality that can not be seperated. Whatever perception or whatever knowledge including so called scientific does not constitute objective reality but a creative activity comparable to artistic expression. We can not measure the true reality because reality is essentially unmeasurable. Study the work of David Bohm and Karl Pibram a neurofisiologist if you wish more info. Bohms holografic model gives us the revolutionary possibility to understand the relationship that exists between the part and the totality.
 
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Royce, I'm goint to take the advice I was given long ago, by a very wise friend, and "stop kicking this dead horse". I think that Tom and Mumeishi are doing excellent without me, and I don't think that any of us can convince you that your beliefs are wrong, since belief is beyond proof and beyond objectivity. If you believe in something, and believe it beyond logic and science, then how could you possibly be convinced otherwise?

btw, the person who told me to stop kicking the dead horse was you, on another thread where belief stood in the way of pure rationalization. I'm taking your good advice this time :smile:.
 
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Mentat, I don't think that it is fair at all to keep throwing my own words back in my face. Just like you playing the devils advocate I am defending or supporting a philosophical position that I don't hold as a personal belief. I was a game in which I was trying to score, make points within your strict limits and definitions. It was an enjoyable exercise in mental gymnastics. Whether you admit it or not I think that I did pretty well.

Now with Tom, if he decides to continue with the discussion and Mumeishi the game has changed and we are starting all over with different definitions and limits.

I do believe that my view and my points are valid as far as they go but is is still too simplistic and needs filling out. The question of objective reality vs subjective and spiritual reality will never be satisfactorily answered here or anyplace else on earth. It will always be subjective and suportable only by subjective evidence. There is no way that objective evidence can apply to a purely subjective topic. It is and always will be a point of view of philosophy and never science.

There is no way that I can argue sujectivism against an objective materialist as he would never except purely subjective evidence.
I think Tom and I are very close to agreement with the exception that I am coming from a spiritual paradigm and he as a scientist can see nor accept any evidence of the spiritual. I think that we do come together in the belief of the objective and subjective.

I'm sure that we will soon be pitting our wits again on another thread until then, my friend.
 

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