The entropy of a Carnot cycle and the efficiency equation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the role of entropy in the Carnot cycle and its relationship to the efficiency equation. Participants explore theoretical aspects of entropy changes during the cycle, particularly in the context of reversible and irreversible processes, and the implications of temperature differences between the working fluid and thermal reservoirs.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the equal sign in the Carnot cycle efficiency equation is due to the total entropy remaining unchanged, suggesting that different temperatures between the auxiliary system and reservoirs could increase entropy and reduce efficiency.
  • Another participant explains that for maximum efficiency, the working substance must be at the same temperature as the reservoirs during heat transfer, referencing the formula for change in entropy.
  • A participant mentions the presence of irreversibility in an irreversible Carnot cycle, detailing how finite temperature and velocity gradients contribute to entropy generation within the working fluid.
  • The same participant provides a mathematical expression for the entropy transfer in an irreversible Carnot cycle, indicating that the efficiency is reduced compared to the reversible case due to entropy generation.
  • One participant references a textbook to illustrate the calculation of entropy changes when starting temperatures differ, indicating a connection to the discussion but not providing a definitive conclusion.
  • A later reply expresses appreciation for the insights shared, indicating that the discussion was helpful for understanding the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the relationship between temperature differences, entropy changes, and efficiency in the Carnot cycle. There is no consensus on the implications of these factors, and multiple competing views remain regarding the effects of irreversibility and temperature on efficiency.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about the conditions under which entropy changes occur, such as the uniformity of temperature in the working fluid and the nature of heat transfer processes. The discussion also touches on the limitations of reversible approximations in real-world applications.

Benhur
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I have my first question. It's about entropy in the Carnot cycle and I'll try to be direct.

The equal sign in the Carnot cycle efficiency equation is related to the fact that the total entropy doesn't change at the end of the whole cycle (being related to the fact that the heat exchanges occur in stages in which the auxiliary system is at same temperature that the respective thermal reservoir)? In other words, if the auxiliary system were at a different temperature from the hot reservoir, for example, would there be an additional growing of the entropy in the whole system, collaborating for the decreasing of the efficiency?

Thank you
 
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If you look at the formula for the change of entropy, \Delta S = \frac{Q}{T}, you can observe that the decrease in entropy in one body can only be exactly equal to the increase in entropy of the other body if both bodies have the same temperature T as the heat Q is flowing from one to the other. So yes, for maximum efficiency, the temperature of the working substance needs to be the same as the temperature of the reservoirs when heat is transferred.

(But since the spontaneous heat flow between two bodies is driven by a difference in temperature, reversible isothermal processes are approximations anyway.)
 
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If you are familiar with calculus, I refer you to "Concepts in Thermal Physics" by Blundell and Blundell, 2nd Ed, Ch 14, Ex 14.1, where the entropy changes in the reservoir and the system are calculated for the case where the starting temperatures are different.
 
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There are two types of irreversibility present in an irreversible Carnot cycle which contribute to entropy generation within the working fluid: finite temperature gradients associated with finite differences between the reservoir temperatures and the average working fluid temperature (the working fluid temperature is not spatially uniform) and finite velocity gradients associated with rapid deformation of the working fluid and related viscous dissipation of mechanical energy. There are also two mechanisms whereby the entropy of a working fluid can vary: entropy generation within the working fluid, and entropy transfer between the working fluid and the ideal reservoirs, via heat transfer at the boundary between the working fluid and the reservoirs.

In the case of an irreversible Carnot cycle, the transfer of entropy between the working fluid and the ideal reservoirs is given by ##\frac{Q_H}{T_H}-\frac{Q_C}{T_C}##, where ##Q_H## is the heat transferred from the hot reservoir to the working fluid at the hot reservoir boundary and ##Q_C## is the heat transferred from the working fluid to the cold reservoir at the cold reservoir boundary. In a cycle, the change in entropy of the working fluid over each cycle must be zero. Therefore, we must have that:
$$\Delta S=\frac{Q_H}{T_H}-\frac{Q_C}{T_C}+\sigma = 0$$where ##\sigma## is the entropy generated within the working fluid per cycle (as a result of finite temperature gradients and velocity gradients). In line with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, ##\sigma## must always be positive. The work done by the working fluid in the cycle is given by: $$W=Q_H-Q_C$$
Combining these equations yields the following for the efficiency of the irreversible Carnot cycle:
$$\eta=\frac{W}{Q_H}=\left(1-\frac{T_C}{T_H}\right)-\frac{\sigma T_C}{Q_H}$$The term in parenthesis on the right hand side is equal to the efficiency of the reversible Carnot cycle. The second term involving the irreversible entropy generation within the working fluid results in a reduction of the efficiency below that of the reversible Carnot cycle.
 
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Chandra Prayaga said:
If you are familiar with calculus, I refer you to "Concepts in Thermal Physics" by Blundell and Blundell, 2nd Ed, Ch 14, Ex 14.1, where the entropy changes in the reservoir and the system are calculated for the case where the starting temperatures are different.
Thank you, I checked the example, it's very interesting.
 
Thank you all, was very helpful to me and nice to understand.
 

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