Thermodynamics: Gradient of Adiabat in PV diagram

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving an expression for the gradient of an adiabat in a PV diagram, using the provided equations of state and entropy for a sample of salt water. The problem is situated within the context of thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the relationships between volume, temperature, and pressure, questioning how to effectively combine the given equations to derive the desired gradient. There are attempts to express differentials and consider the implications of adiabatic processes on entropy.

Discussion Status

Some participants have suggested specific approaches, such as solving for temperature in terms of volume and substituting into the volume equation. Others express confusion about the direction of their reasoning and the complexity of the differentials involved. There is an acknowledgment of multiple approaches being discussed without a clear consensus on the best path forward.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the assumption of reversibility in adiabatic changes and the potential issues with the dimensionality of the logarithmic term in the entropy equation. There are indications of missing information or clarity regarding the equations provided.

nobosity
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Homework Statement



The Equation of State and the expression for the entropy for a sample of salt water is given by:

V = V_{0}(1 + \beta(T - T_{0}) - \gamma(P - P_{0})) S = S_{0} + C_{v}ln(T - T_{0}) + \frac{\beta}{\gamma}(V - V_{0})

where the subscript 0 denotes a reference state, the coefficients \beta and \gamma are constants and C_{v} is the heat capacity of the salt water at constant volume.

Derive an expression for the gradient of an adiabat in a PV diagram.

Homework Equations


Listed above.

The Attempt at a Solution



I struggle to write the attempts I've made trying to answer this question. I understand that in this case we have V(T,P) and S(T,V), the gradient will be (dP/dV) and using the fact that an adiabat occurs when there is no change in heat energy. Also aware of the fact that Cv can be written as a differential in terms of (dU/dT), which is possibly relevant.

The real issue is I have no idea of the best way to put all of this information together and find a logical pathway to answer. Do I want to get to: dP = \frac{\partial{P}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{P}}{\partial{V}}dV and substitute a concoction of the above information to get to the gradient?

Been banging my head against this problem for a couple of weeks, and would be very grateful for someone to point me in the right direction!

EDIT:
Probably should have included that in my explanation. I get that for an adiabatic change, dS is 0 assuming reversibility. Similarly, I got to the point where I have:

dV = \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{P}}dP

and

dS = \frac{\partial{S}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{S}}{\partial{V}}dV = 0

However, none of these approaches seems to lead to a place where I can rearrange to get to dP/dV. Thats the part I'm a bit stuck on.
 
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Construct dV from the first given equation and dS from the second equation. "Adiabatic" tells you something about dS.
 
TSny said:
Construct dV from the first given equation and dS from the second equation. "Adiabatic" tells you something about dS.

Probably should have included that in my explanation. I get that for an adiabatic change, dS is 0 assuming reversibility. Similarly, I got to the point where I have:

dV = \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{P}}dP

and

dS = \frac{\partial{S}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{S}}{\partial{V}}dV = 0

However, none of these approaches seems to lead to a place where I can rearrange to get to dP/dV. Thats the part I'm a bit stuck on.Thanks for the reply though.
 
Can you solve your dS equation for dT and sub into the first equation?
 
Solve the S equation for ##T-T_0## and substitute into the V equation. Then take the derivative of P with respect to V at constant S.
 
Chestermiller said:
Solve the S equation for ##T-T_0## and substitute into the V equation. Then take the derivative of P with respect to V at constant S.

So solving dS gives me:

dS = \frac{dT}{T-T_{0}} + \frac{\beta}{\gamma} = 0

and subbing into dV gives:

-\frac{\gamma}{\beta}\frac{dT}{T-T_0} = \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{P}}dP

But from here, and I'm probably being thick, I find myself with a lot of differentials and not a lot of directions. Calculating the partials gives:

-\frac{\gamma}{\beta}\frac{dT}{T-T_0} =\beta{V_{0}}dT - \gamma{P_{0}}dP

but then there's no Vs anywhere in sight...
 
nobosity said:
So solving dS gives me:

dS = \frac{dT}{T-T_{0}} + \frac{\beta}{\gamma} = 0

and subbing into dV gives:

-\frac{\gamma}{\beta}\frac{dT}{T-T_0} = \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{T}}dT + \frac{\partial{V}}{\partial{P}}dP

But from here, and I'm probably being thick, I find myself with a lot of differentials and not a lot of directions. Calculating the partials gives:

-\frac{\gamma}{\beta}\frac{dT}{T-T_0} =\beta{V_{0}}dT - \gamma{P_{0}}dP

but then there's no Vs anywhere in sight...
Who said anything about differentiating the S equation? Not me.
 
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Chestermiller said:
Who said anything about differentiating the S equation? Not me.

It all dawned on me at once, I was leading myself down the garden path. Thanks!
 
Chestermiller said:
Who said anything about differentiating the S equation? Not me.

And just for future reference for anyone who stumbles across a similar problem, I ended up with:

P = P_{0} + \frac{1}{\gamma{V}} + \frac{\beta}{\gamma{V}}e^{-C_{v}}e^{-\frac{\beta}{\gamma}(V-V_{0})}

dP/dV of that should give the slope of the adiabat!
 
  • #10
nobosity said:
It all dawned on me at once, I was leading myself down the garden path.
You have been given two different approaches. My approach is to use the equation for S and the fact that dS = 0 to get an expression for dT in terms of dV. Then when you take the differential of the V equation, you can express it in terms of just the differentials dV and dP. From that you can get an expression for dP/dV in terms of V, P, and T. But you can eliminate T by using the V equation.

The equation that you were given for S doesn't look correct to me. You have a logarithm of the dimensional quantity T- To. The argument of a logarithm is generally dimensionless. Also, the equation for S is undefined at the reference state where T = To. It looks to me that the argument of the logarithm should maybe be T/To. The the equation for S will yield S = So at the reference state.
 

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