[Thermodynamics] Ideal Gas Properties of Air

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the ideal gas properties of air, specifically focusing on the concept of standard state entropy and its distinction from normal entropy. Participants explore the implications of varying specific heats on entropy calculations and seek clarification on related thermodynamic properties.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the nature of S^o, referring to it as an "entropy like thing."
  • Another participant explains that S^o represents the standard state entropy, defined through an integral involving specific heat at constant pressure, C_p.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the difference between standard state entropy and normal entropy, prompting a discussion on the reference point of absolute zero for standard state entropy.
  • It is noted that when temperature changes are significant and specific heats vary nonlinearly, using constant specific heats can lead to errors in entropy-change calculations, suggesting the need for accurate temperature-dependent relations.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the term V_r and its application, particularly in the context of calculating internal energy for an Otto cycle.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the concepts of standard state entropy and its calculations, indicating that multiple views and some confusion remain on these topics.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential errors in entropy-change calculations due to assumptions about constant specific heats and the need for accurate relations for specific heats as a function of temperature. The discussion does not resolve these issues.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and professionals interested in thermodynamics, particularly those studying ideal gas properties and entropy calculations in various processes.

Altairs
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I was studying the Ideal gas properties of air. Among other properties like h, P_r, U, V_r I also found an S^o. What is this entropy like thing ?
 
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Altairs said:
I was studying the Ideal gas properties of air. Among other properties like h, P_r, U, V_r I also found an S^o. What is this entropy like thing ?

It is the standard state entropy:

S^0 = \int_{T_{ref}}^T \frac{C_p(T)}{T}dT

CS
 
Standard State Entropy ? What's the difference between Standard STate Entropy and the normal Entropy ?
 
Altairs said:
Standard State Entropy ? What's the difference between Standard STate Entropy and the normal Entropy ?

Standard state entropy is just referenced at absolute zero (t,ref in the integral above).

When the temperature change during a process is large and the specific heats of the ideal gas vary nonlinearly within the temperature range, the assumption of constant specific heats may lead to considerable errors in entropy-change calculations. For those cases, the variation of specific heats with temperature should be properly accounted for by utilizing accurate relations for the specific heats as a function of temperature. The entropy change during a process is then determined by substituting those Cv(T) and Cp(T) relations into the entropy equations and integrating.

Instead of performing the laborious integrals each time you have a new process, it is convenient to perform these integrals once and tabulate the results. For this purpose absolute zero is chosen as the reference temperature as defined in the equation above.

One may then simply refer to the tabulated values to determine the entropy change.

CS
 
what is Vr... I know how to get Vr from my text but not sure what it is and what its used for...Im trying to find values for internal energy for an otto cycle question...im working on EES but only know how to get the values for Vr from the text
 

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