Thought experiment with electron and proton

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SUMMARY

This discussion centers on a thought experiment involving a universe with one electron and one proton, governed by Coulomb's law and the strong interaction. It concludes that if the kinetic energy of the electron is low, it forms an excited hydrogen atom that will eventually emit photons and drop to lower energy states, ultimately reaching the ground state. The conversation also touches on the stability of the proton, noting its long half-life and the theoretical possibility of proton decay due to baryon number violation. The participants clarify that while classical mechanics suggests perpetual motion, quantum mechanics introduces the concept of energy states and spontaneous emission, leading to a more complex understanding of the system.

PREREQUISITES
  • Coulomb's law and its implications in atomic physics
  • Quantum mechanics fundamentals, particularly energy states and spontaneous emission
  • Understanding of hydrogen atom structure and behavior
  • Basic knowledge of particle physics, including proton stability and decay
NEXT STEPS
  • Explore quantum mechanics and the concept of energy eigenstates in detail
  • Research the implications of spontaneous emission in quantum field theory
  • Study the stability of protons and the theories surrounding baryon number violation
  • Investigate the quantization of the electromagnetic field and its effects on particle interactions
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, students of quantum mechanics, and anyone interested in atomic structure and particle interactions will benefit from this discussion, particularly those exploring the nuances of electron-proton dynamics and the implications of quantum theory.

  • #31
yeah, it is kind of silly to talk about 'how would things work if we allowed some of quantum mechanics but not other parts'. For anything to properly make sense, either stay fully classical, or go into the quantum regime. Anything in the middle is not so useful. Well, maybe there are some exceptions, like how semi-classically, the electron in the atom feels a magnetic force from the proton, since from its viewpoint, the proton is moving around it. But really, it is better to do these things the proper (fully-quantum) way.
 
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  • #32
DaleSpam said:
No matter how you look at it it is simply not correct that it winds up "going back and forth forever".

Why not ? Are there observations that rule it out ?
 
  • #33
Yes. Atoms at rest are observed to not emit synchotron radiation.
 
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  • #34
DaleSpam said:
Yes. Atoms at rest are observed to not emit synchotron radiation.

That seems to rule out only curved electron orbits.
 
  • #35
DaleSpam said:
Yes. Atoms at rest are observed to not emit synchotron radiation.

You mean atoms in a stationary state.
 
  • #36
Electrons in a stationary atom are moving, since they have kinetic energy. So in a sense they are eternally moving back and forth.
 
  • #37
DaleSpam said:
It is contrary to observation.

All of it's kinetic and potential energy, yes.

Classically the electron would, by radiating, increase its kinetic energy and decrease its potential energy indefinitely. That is possible because classical point charges have infinite electromagnetic self energy. The total energy would never become negative.
 
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  • #38
my2cts said:
Classically the electron would, by radiating, increase its kinetic energy and decrease its potential energy indefinitely.
Indefinitely? If something is radiating energy away, how can this go on indefinitely?
 
  • #39
forcefield said:
That seems to rule out only curved electron orbits.
Obviously. The Coulomb potential couldn't lead to any others.
 
  • #40
my2cts said:
Electrons in a stationary atom are moving, since they have kinetic energy. So in a sense they are eternally moving back and forth.
They may have KE, but their expected position is not changing. They are not moving back and forth.

my2cts said:
Classically the electron would, by radiating, increase its kinetic energy
You have this exactly backwards. An electron loses KE by radiating.

In any case, atoms are not observed to radiate indefnitely either.
 
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  • #41
This thread is such a mess of classical and quantum concepts and blatant misinformation that it is not useful any more, if it ever was useful.

The question in the OP was clearly and correctly answered back in post 2. If forcefield does not like the answer then he/she is free to consult an actual textbook.
 
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