Transistor current gain in saturation mode

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the operation of transistors as switches, specifically focusing on the current gain in saturation mode and the implications for circuit design. Participants explore the characteristics of a specific transistor model, its datasheet specifications, and the practical considerations for achieving saturation in real-world applications.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the DC current gain (hfe = 110) specified in the datasheet applies to the linear operating region and seeks clarification on the implications of lower hfe values for saturation.
  • Another participant confirms that the hfe value is for the active region and explains that whether a transistor is in saturation depends on the base current relative to the collector current.
  • A participant introduces the concept of "overdrive factor" or "Forced Beta" to ensure saturation, suggesting that base current should exceed a certain threshold to account for variations in beta.
  • Concerns are raised about the switching speed of the transistor, with one participant noting that transistors with higher beta values may switch slower, suggesting an alternative model for faster switching applications.
  • Another participant elaborates on the reasons for the decrease in current gain in saturation mode, explaining the effects of forward biasing the base-collector junction and its impact on the collector current.
  • A participant shares their simulation results, indicating a low Vce value, which they consider acceptable for their application.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of current gain in saturation and the effectiveness of specific transistors for switching applications. There is no consensus on the best approach or model for ensuring saturation, as various factors such as beta variation and switching speed are debated.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the variability of beta in real-world transistors, the dependence on operating conditions, and the lack of definitive conclusions regarding the best practices for achieving saturation in switching applications.

TheRedDevil18
Messages
406
Reaction score
2
Hi, I want to operate my transistor as a switch. I am using this one
Datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1868820.pdf

In the data sheet, it says the DC current gain hfe = 110 which I am assuming that's for the linear operating region ?, so if my hfe is less than 110 then will it be in saturation ?

I see in one of the Vce(sat) vs Ic graphs that hfe = 10. If my current gain is 20, will it still be in saturation ?
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
TheRedDevil18 said:
In the data sheet, it says the DC current gain hfe = 110 which I am assuming that's for the linear operating region ?
Yes, in active region (Vce = 5V and Ic = 2mA)

TheRedDevil18 said:
so if my hfe is less than 110 then will it be in saturation
Yes and No, It depends on base current/collector current.

35b.png

For this circuit with ideal transistor (CCCS) any base current large than:
Ib > (Vcc/Rc)/β will saturate our BJT.

But in real life ideal transistor don't exist. For any real world transistor the β is not constant. Beta varies with Ic, Vce, temperature. And what is worse, every single transistor will have different beta value and beta will changes for different operating conditions also.
Also in saturation Ic = Ib * β do not hold any more.
So too overcome this problem with beta and saturation we are forced to use "overdrive factor" or "Forced Beta" trick.
We simply increase the base current well beyond Ib > (Vcc/Rc)/β (beyond minimum beta). We do this to make sure that we have enough base current to put the transistor well into saturation for every condition we have in our circuit.

TheRedDevil18 said:
I see in one of the Vce(sat) vs Ic graphs that hfe = 10. If my current gain is 20, will it still be in saturation ?

Most BJT's vendors define saturation region when Ic/Ib = 10 (called Forced Beta). And the most data-sheet show Vce_sat for Ic/Ib = 10
So to be one hundred percent sure that your BJT will be in saturation you must use this so-called forced beta technique when choosing base resistor value.

Ib/Ic = 10


Rb = (Vin - Vbe)/(0.1*Ic)

Rc = (Vcc - Vce_sat)/Ic

Or

Ib = (Vin - Vbe)/Rb

Vce = Vcc - Ic*Rc = Vcc - hfe*Ib*Rc =Vcc - Hfe*(Vin - Vbe)/Rb*Rc = Vcc - hfe*Rc/Rb * (Vin - Vbe) --> Solving for Rb

Rb\leqslant \frac{Vin(min) - Vbe}{Vcc - Vce(sat)}*\frac{hfe(min)}{K}*Rc

K = 3...10 - overdrive factor
 
Last edited:
TheRedDevil18 said:
Hi, I want to operate my transistor as a switch. I am using this one
Datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1868820.pdf
Those transistors are not very good as switches. They will go into saturation willingly enough, but they will take "forever" (meaning at least 100μs) to come out of saturation. A rule of thumb says that the higher β the transistor has, the slower it will be as a switch. If you want a fast switch transistor, take a look at this data sheet: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1662493.pdf. The important characteristics for a switching transistor are shown as "Turn on time" and "Turn off time".
 
Supplementing Jony130`s excellent answer, I like to mention the reasons for the drastic current gain decrease in saturation mode.
As an example, for VBE=0.7 V and VCE=0.2 V we have VBC=+0.5 V, which means: The base-collector pn junction is forward biased with 0.5 V.
As a consequence, the base node is connected to two forward biased pn junctions and the base current will increase correspondingly. At the same time, the collector current is decreased because the portion of the base current going towards the collector (open BC junction) has the opposite direction if compared with the "normal" collector current. Hence, the ratio IC/IB is drastically reduced. The exact value is hard to determine, but for switching applications we are on the safe side assuming IC/IB=10...20.
 
Thank you all for the information. I simulated the circuit using multisim and my Vce is about 52mV which is good

@Svein, I'm using the transistor provided by my college for free. Although I know transistors are very cheap and I could go and buy the one you listed but for my project fast switching is not really needed so i'll stick to the one I have
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
Replies
68
Views
7K
Replies
3
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K