Tripping Behavior of Circuit Breakers

[kiki_danc]

For US residents. If you have the above circuit breaker put in your panel phase to phase (2 pole).. and one of the phase touches neutral.. would the circuit breaker trip or not? It's rated 240 volts.. yet one pole only has 120 volts.. would that 120 volts shorting the neutral trips it?

This was written in the label above reproduced here:

Current Interrupting Rating
Max RMS/Sym Voltage
10 KA 240VAC
5KA 415VAC
CU-AL 50/60Hz
Type TOC 2430WLXAnd what does the 10kA at 240VAC, 5kA at 415VAC mean? at 120VAC.. it could become 20kA... would this make it trip if shorting to neutral (let's say the wire inside metal enclosure accidentally touch the enclosure connected to neutral)?

I mentioned specifically neutral and not ground because in our location. We only use phase to phase to create 240 volts. All our equipments are 240 volts. We never use phase to neutral of 120 volts. Hence our neutral is made our ground. We don't have separate ground because since we don't the neutral then they make it our ground.

 

[jim hardy]

For US residents. If you have the above circuit breaker put in your panel phase to phase (2 pole).. and one of the phase touches neutral.. would the circuit breaker trip or not?

One pole on its output side touch neutral ? Of course it would trip .
Kirchoff tells us that current goes only back to wherever it came from, be that a transformer winding or a flashlight battery.
Neutral is centertap of our 240 volt transformer winding
and each pole is connected to an end of that winding.
Current will be perfectly happy to return to the centertap .
120 volts will push plenty of amps around that current loop: > out one end of the winding > breaker > neutral wire > back to centertap.of the winding .....

And what does the 10kA at 240VAC, 5kA at 415VAC mean?

It means if your source of power is capable of delivering more than 10KA into a short circuit,
"We're going to need a bigger breaker" .

it's called "Interrupting rating" and is the maximum current you can ask it to interrupt.

in our location. We only use phase to phase to create 240 volts. All our equipments are 240 volts. We never use phase to neutral of 120 volts. Hence our neutral is made our ground. We don't have separate ground because since we don't the neutral then they make it our ground.

So i take it you "ground" (i prefer to use the word 'earth' ) the centertap and connect an earthing wire ? Our Earth wire is green but in some Euro cords i see blue and brown...
Many 240 volt appliances in US don't use a Neutral wire and are connected as you describe. My water heater is so connected.

You ought to read up on circuit breaker terminology. There's a section here
http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/GET-2779?TNR=Application and Technical|GET-2779|PDF&filename=GET-2779K v6.pdf

 

[kiki_danc]

One pole on its output side touch neutral ? Of course it would trip .
Kirchoff tells us that current goes only back to wherever it came from, be that a transformer winding or a flashlight battery.
Neutral is centertap of our 240 volt transformer winding
and each pole is connected to an end of that winding.
Current will be perfectly happy to return to the centertap .
120 volts will push plenty of amps around that current loop: > out one end of the winding > breaker > neutral wire > back to centertap.of the winding .....

But notice the rating of the breaker above.. it's written 240VAC.. shouldn't it be 120VAC since one pole to neutral is really 120VAC?

Or supposed in the US, if you used a 480VAC breaker.. what would happen.. would it take bigger current to trip it or couldn't it trip easily or is it invariant to any breaker voltage rating so even a 1000 VAC breaker would trip when shorted to neutral as easily as a pure 120Vac breaker?

It means if your source of power is capable of delivering more than 10KA into a short circuit,
"We're going to need a bigger breaker" .
View attachment 231741

it's called "Interrupting rating" and is the maximum current you can ask it to interrupt.
So i take it you "ground" (i prefer to use the word 'earth' ) the centertap and connect an earthing wire ? Our Earth wire is green but in some Euro cords i see blue and brown...
Many 240 volt appliances in US don't use a Neutral wire and are connected as you describe. My water heater is so connected.

You ought to read up on circuit breaker terminology. There's a section here
http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/GET-2779?TNR=Application and Technical|GET-2779|PDF&filename=GET-2779K v6.pdf

In our location. Our ground is just neutral connected to the centertap of the transformers without any earthing. So if the neutral is accidentally touched to the metal enclosure.. it would trip the breaker even before a person touch it.. so this is better than metal enclosure not engaged.

 

[jim hardy]

Our ground is just neutral connected to the centertap of the transformers without any earthing.

i don't understand - is there no connection to earth, right at the transformer supplying your building ?
Why then do you call it "Ground" ?
In US,
That little bare copper wire along the side of the pole Earth's the centertap.

But notice the rating of the breaker above.. it's written 240VAC.. shouldn't it be 120VAC since one pole to neutral is really 120VAC?

No, why would it ? Either pole of the breaker might be asked to interrupt the full 240 volts between phases.

Or supposed in the US, if you used a 480VAC breaker.. what would happen.. would it take bigger current to trip it or couldn't it trip easily or is it invariant to any breaker voltage rating so even a 1000 VAC breaker would trip when shorted to neutral as easily as a pure 120Vac breaker?

Why would it ? Breakers sense current . Their purpose is to protect wire from overheating, not from overvoltage.

 

[kiki_danc]

i don't understand - is there no connection to earth, right at the transformer supplying your building ?
Why then do you call it "Ground" ?
In US,
That little bare copper wire along the side of the pole Earth's the centertap.

What would happen if the pole centertap is not grounded? I'd use my high power binocular to check the pole from 10 meters away if it's grounded.

View attachment 231752No, why would it ? Either pole of the breaker might be asked to interrupt the full 240 volts between phases.


Why would it ? Breakers sense current . Their purpose is to protect wire from overheating, not from overvoltage.

So even if the circuit breaker is rated at 1000 volts.. if it is only 20 Ampere.. it would trip at 20 Ampere regardless of the voltage? Good to know I don't have to replace any of my circuit breakers. I'd tell electrician to connect neutral to every enclosure because we have habits of not connecting the ground wire of say aircon metal frame. When I pass by the third floor.. I always touch this metal frame of aircon and knowing it's not grounded gives me chills now.

 

[kiki_danc]

In countries where neutral is not used for equipment power where you only use phase to phase, you can use the neutral as grounding.

But here is a question:

If you use the neutral of one subpanel as ground for the aircon metal casing (top subpanel).. while for another panel (bottom subpanel).. you use the neutral as line 1 to neutral to get 120 volts service.. would the neutral in the top subpanel you are using as ground gets electrified?

 

[jim hardy]

What would happen if the pole centertap is not grounded?

If there's no ground connection you have an unsafe installation. See below.

So even if the circuit breaker is rated at 1000 volts.. if it is only 20 Ampere.. it would trip at 20 Ampere regardless of the voltage?

Yes, irrespective of the voltage.

I'd tell electrician to connect neutral to every enclosure because we have habits of not connecting the ground wire of say aircon metal frame.

Make sure it's grounded someplace.

 

[sparkie]

Those kVA and kV ratings are for near instantaneous current/power conditions.

This circuit breaker is two-pole common-trip, meaning that if either breaker is to trip, both poles are disconnected. I'm not going to get into multi-wire branch circuits on this thread, but you can look more into NEC requirements for multi-wire branch circuit overcurrent and short circuit protection.

I'm afraid that you *may* be wrong with your idea that your country only uses "Phase to phase" 240 for your appliances. EDIT(Again): Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that most EU countries use 220V Line-to-Neutral voltage. Sorry about that, made the wording more specific.

Another misconception you have this this "phase-to-phase" idea when dealing with single phase systems. For the transformer systems described above, it is called single phase. It is actually two phases that are 180 degrees out of phase (so that they are *IN* phase) but have opposing polarities. This is not to be confused with a two-phase system, which is a real type of utility service. The proper terminology for this type of residential/light commercial equipment is line-to-line so as to avoid any ambiguity in that regard.

What country are you from, exactly? A neutral and a ground are NOT the same thing. One serves as a circuit completion at the 0V tap on a transformer, while the ground serves as a low resistance path for fault current so that your body does not become a grounded conductor.

 

[kiki_danc]

Ok. I live in the Phillippines. 99% of our appliances or metal enclosure are not grounded. Most (including me) didn't even know the purpose of grounding. Therefore I reveal my country as I think it is very important to initiate grounding awareness drive...

Only US citizen who came to Philippines are aware of grounding.. the following is a construction blog by a American who married a local.. He wrote: http://myphilippinelife.com/philippine-electrical-wiring/

"Most Philippine houses are not wired with three-prong, grounded outlets. Most outlets have only a load wire and a neutral wire. The quality of grounding of the neutral wire can be uncertain due to improper earthing at the pole or in the residence. If you’ve spent any time in the Philippines, you’ve probably been repeatedly shocked by your computer, refrigerator and so forth. The metal parts of these appliances either have no ground (earth) connection and/or the neutral is not properly grounded. When you touch them with bare feet on a tile, you become the ground. Since bare feet on tile are a pleasure of Philippine retirement, this is best avoided."

He described our power system:

"MANILA AND CITIES: Three wire 120/240V Systems. In Manila, Iloilo City and other large Philippine cities, residences are supplied with 240 volt, alternating current, 60 cycle power. Power from the utility transformer to the residence arrives through three wires, two 120 VAC load (“hot”) wires and a single neutral. Circuits in the residence are generally wired to supply 240 VAC to outlets using the two 120 VAC load wires, much the same as a heavy appliance (dryer, hot water heater etc.) would be supplied in the U.S. All small and large appliances sold in the Philippines are designed to use 240 VAC, 60C."

"OUTSIDE OF BIG CITIES: Two wire 230V Systems Areas outside of the old established cities were electrified later and use a different and more economical system using a two wire service drop to the residence. This consists of one 230 VAC load wire and one neutral wire."

In the grounding description above.. he was describing this two wire 230V system. In our capital where we mostly use split phase 120/240V systems. It's not grounded either. In all the buildings I see. We only have 2 wire outlets (from the two live wires).. which came from the 2 lines of the 120/240V. The neutral was often not used and we don't have any grounding wires. In my home and my relatives.. we don't even have neutral or ground in our main panel (I just checked mine... the other building mentioned in another thread is an office building with co-partners).

So I guess the government must initiate grounding awareness drive.. but problem is.. they may not realize the problem. If I didn't go into trying to install surge protectors. I couldn't have understood the purpose of grounding either.

 

[sparkie]

Fun fact, remember that two phase system I said that is a rare thing? The Philippines is one of the few places I believe still has it, somewhere at least. I can't remember exactly where I was reading about it you may actually be the exception to my comments about it being line to line, rather than phase to phase if that is the case.

That's pretty cool. And yes, having a service improperly grounded is a nightmare. Hopefully you guys start enforcing the NEC soon, as I believe your country already uses it as the standard.

Found it on wikipedia, it was Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.

 

[kiki_danc]

Fun fact, remember that two phase system I said that is a rare thing? The Philippines is one of the few places I believe still has it, somewhere at least. I can't remember exactly where I was reading about it you may actually be the exception to my comments about it being line to line, rather than phase to phase if that is the case.

That's pretty cool. And yes, having a service improperly grounded is a nightmare. Hopefully you guys start enforcing the NEC soon, as I believe your country already uses it as the standard.

Found it on wikipedia, it was Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.

Why what is the difference between phase to phase, and line to line.. if our country power system uses 120v in each phase that is 180 degree out of phase to produce 240v. Then what power is in each line to line in other countries for example?

 

[jim hardy]

If you use the neutral of one subpanel as ground for the aircon metal casing (top subpanel).. while for another panel (bottom subpanel).. you use the neutral as line 1 to neutral to get 120 volts service.. would the neutral in the top subpanel you are using as ground gets electrified?

See my post above.

In US we are allowed to use a metal conduit or raceway for the safety Earth ground conductor between receptacle and breaker panel so long as it is of "approved" design.. In non conductive or discontinuous conduit we must run a green wire with the hot and neutral wires.

It is not clear what you mean by

use the neutral as line 1 to neutral to get 120 volts service.

Any wire connected from tall slot to transformer centertap would serve as a neutral line but you might be violating your electrical code - i wouldn't know.
In US you CANNOT use the same conductor for both Neutral and safety earthing functions.
Neutral carries normal load current back to transformer centertap
Safety Earthing Conductor (often called Protective Ground) carries current ONLY when there's been an insulation breakdown.Draw yourself a centertapped winding schematic like i did in post 47,
draw in your circuit breakers
and an outlet receptacle

then trace out load & fault currents
you'll see why we use three conductors unless it's a double insulated appliance.

 

[jim hardy]

there are several old PF threads on grounding in residential distribution.

one at https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-ground-split-phase-residential.767111/

 

[kiki_danc]

Fun fact, remember that two phase system I said that is a rare thing? The Philippines is one of the few places I believe still has it, somewhere at least. I can't remember exactly where I was reading about it you may actually be the exception to my comments about it being line to line, rather than phase to phase if that is the case.

That's pretty cool. And yes, having a service improperly grounded is a nightmare. Hopefully you guys start enforcing the NEC soon, as I believe your country already uses it as the standard.

Found it on wikipedia, it was Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.

Well. It took me a week to understand the principle of grounding after trying to understand the electrical principle of surge protectors. For other citizens here including government.. they won't ever understand the purpose of grounding. Two weeks ago. I thought grounding can make the equipment behave better.. but since we don't get broken appliances every so often, we ignore grounding.

See my post above.

View attachment 231769

In US we are allowed to use a metal conduit or raceway for the safety Earth ground conductor between receptacle and breaker panel so long as it is of "approved" design.. In non conductive or discontinuous conduit we must run a green wire with the hot and neutral wires.

It is not clear what you mean by Any wire connected from tall slot to transformer centertap would serve as a neutral line but you might be violating your electrical code - i wouldn't know.
In US you CANNOT use the same conductor for both Neutral and safety earthing functions.
Neutral carries normal load current back to transformer centertap
Safety Earthing Conductor (often called Protective Ground) carries current ONLY when there's been an insulation breakdown.

In my country. Since the neutral was not used for 120volts. Then it's only purpose may be for grounding metal enclosure. This would work as when the line touches the enclosure connected to neutral. It can n trip the breaker. This is better than 99% not using any grounding in the metal enclosure.

So what I mean to say was. One subpanel uses neutral for safety grounding of the appliances connected to it. While for another subpanel, the neutral would be used as return conduit for Line 1 to get 120 volts. Note 99.9% in my country don't use this because government prohibited use of 120 volts for our appliance to avoid us buying products from the US instead of locally. But in my case. I'd need to use surge protectors and get 120V volts model for better clamping voltage.. therefore is there any problem if one subpanel would use the neutral as ground, and the second subpanel would use the neutral as return conduit for 120 volts.. ? Draw yourself a centertapped winding schematic like i did in post 47,
draw in your circuit breakers
and an outlet receptacle

then trace out load & fault currents
you'll see why we use three conductors unless it's a double insulated appliance.[/QUOTE]

 

[sparkie]

We can't give you specific advice on how to accomplish what you want. There are too many variables an untrained eye can miss, and there is a lot of potential for things to go wrong. You could potentially electrify all bonded metal in your home, or burn up your entire electrical system, likely both.

The short answer is that yes, you can use a spare conductor as the grounding conductor.

No, you can not just tie your neutral to the grounds for the reasons mentioned above. You should consult a local electrician, which can be done for cheap to find out exactly what you need to do.

 

[kiki_danc]

We can't give you specific advice on how to accomplish what you want. There are too many variables an untrained eye can miss, and there is a lot of potential for things to go wrong. You could potentially electrify all bonded metal in your home, or burn up your entire electrical system, likely both.

The short answer is that yes, you can use a spare conductor as the grounding conductor.

No, you can not just tie your neutral to the grounds for the reasons mentioned above. You should consult a local electrician, which can be done for cheap to find out exactly what you need to do.

Of course I never do it myself. I hired licensed electricians.

Anyway. Besides the Philippines. What other countries have homes that are not grounded?

 

[sparkie]

Here in America we have homes that are not grounded. I do work in them all the time. Grounding wasn't introduced until the 70s, so pretty much anything built before then doesn't have a ground.

 

[jim hardy]

So what I mean to say was. One subpanel uses neutral for safety grounding of the appliances connected to it. While for another subpanel, the neutral would be used as return conduit for Line 1 to get 120 volts. Note 99.9% in my country don't use this because government prohibited use of 120 volts for our appliance to avoid us buying products from the US instead of locally. But in my case. I'd need to use surge protectors and get 120V volts model for better clamping voltage.. therefore is there any problem if one subpanel would use the neutral as ground, and the second subpanel would use the neutral as return conduit for 120 volts.. ?

The problem i see is how will the next guy figure out what you did ?
There's been a problem in understanding "Ground": in US too and our code is still being clarified. Here's a primer.
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/what-is-the-difference-between-bonding-grounding-and-earthing
The reason for NOT letting load current flow through safety earthing/protective grounding conductors is so there won't be any voltage on the case of an appliance.

You want consistency. That's why we ALWAYS use white wire for neutral and green for earth/protective ground.

Where you propose to change the function of your earth/protective conductor (which you call Neutral) and use it to return load current ,
what will you now use for an earth/protective conductor ? What colors will they be ? How will the ext guy know what you've done?

There IS a Phillipines electrical code - Learn and follow it !
https://filipinoengineer.com/wiki/P...otection/Article_2.50_-_Grounding_And_Bonding

 

[kiki_danc]

The problem i see is how will the next guy figure out what you did ?
There's been a problem in understanding "Ground": in US too and our code is still being clarified. Here's a primer.
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/what-is-the-difference-between-bonding-grounding-and-earthing
The reason for NOT letting load current flow through safety earthing/protective grounding conductors is so there won't be any voltage on the case of an appliance.

You want consistency. That's why we ALWAYS use white wire for neutral and green for earth/protective ground.

Where you propose to change the function of your earth/protective conductor (which you call Neutral) and use it to return load current ,
what will you now use for an earth/protective conductor ? What colors will they be ? How will the ext guy know what you've done?

There IS a Phillipines electrical code - Learn and follow it !
https://filipinoengineer.com/wiki/P...otection/Article_2.50_-_Grounding_And_Bonding

We mostly copied our codes from abroad. For example our Structural code was copied word for word from the American ACI structure code. But the problem is contractor and even designers never follow the code. So our structural design is very bad. Likewise for electrical. In my own home. I don't even have any grounding in my main breaker panel. I don't know how to add ground in my own home. The other building I mentioned is an office building and 3 phase was applied that was why we have neutral.

 

[jim hardy]

We mostly copied our codes from abroad.... But the problem is contractor and even designers never follow the code. So our structural design is very bad. Likewise for electrical. In my own home. I don't even have any grounding in my main breaker panel. I don't know how to add ground in my own home. The other building I mentioned is an office building and 3 phase was applied that was why we have neutral.

That's reason enough for you to
1. develop rudimentary DC circuit analysis skills
2. understand basics of grounding , neutral, protective Earth ground which will tell you why the code says what it does
3. learn how your house SHOULD be wired with what conductors if what colors
4. bring your house up to code
5. advise whoever owns that office building of his code shortfalls.

Good starting place is this old PF thread
https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...t-live-and-neutral-wires.892309/#post-5613568
and IEEE Green Book standard 142. https://www.mercury-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/groundingandbonding.pdf

 

[anorlunda]

Ugh. This is one of my least favorite topics on PF. There are hundreds of "standard" wiring schemes used around the world. Therefore, when we have participants from many countries in a thread, the discussion rapidly becomes too confusing to follow. Several PF members said that they would never again participate in any thread that uses the words "neutral" or "ground"

As far as what is best, in most cases you have no choice other than to follow local practices, because deviations from the local norm are themselves a hazard. The wisest advice is given above in @jim hardy 's post #20.

 

[kiki_danc]

That's reason enough for you to
1. develop rudimentary DC circuit analysis skills
2. understand basics of grounding , neutral, protective Earth ground which will tell you why the code says what it does
3. learn how your house SHOULD be wired with what conductors if what colors
4. bring your house up to code
5. advise whoever owns that office building of his code shortfalls.

Good starting place is this old PF thread
https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...t-live-and-neutral-wires.892309/#post-5613568
and IEEE Green Book standard 142. https://www.mercury-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/groundingandbonding.pdf

I will.
Note any electrical work in my building will always be supervised by licensed electrical engineer because I don't want to get electrocuted. I just talked to one. He said we don't have neutral in the country but only ground. I checked the utility pole.. good there is this rod stuck to the ground (picture below). It is just 3 meters away from my service entrance. The pole only service my building and another building beside it. So I guess we own the ground. If you have pole rod stuck to ground 3 meters in front of you. Does it make sense to stick another Earth rod for the building. The electrical engineer is not so interested in doing that I don't know why.

 

[sparkie]

According to your code, yes there should be a grounding electrode at your house and to your FIRST POINT OF DISCONNECT.

 

[kiki_danc]

According to your code, yes there should be a grounding electrode at your house and to your FIRST POINT OF DISCONNECT.

In my country where corruption and cost cutting is the middle name (in all industries and community) . Most homes don't even have the centertap of the powerline connected to the house. For example. In my home now (built in 2001.. I bought it second hand). The following (pictures) is the main panel. No ground bar. Now supposed i'll let contractor dig ground to create grounding electrode and use it as ground.. would it trip the breaker when the ground is not connected to the centertap of the transformer? (I read about bonding requirement of neutral and ground at main panel in US so I'm wondering). I need to know because I need to write a letter to the power utility company to request center tap wire be added to my house because right now I only have phase to phase of 240 volts supplied to my house (note my house is not to be confused with the office building I was describing in the other thread).

 

[anorlunda]

Now supposed i'll let contractor dig ground to create grounding electrode and use it as ground.. would it trip the breaker when the ground is not connected to the centertap of the transformer? I need to know because I need to write a letter to the power utility company to request center tap wires be added to my house because right now I only have phase to phase of 240 volts supplied to my house

That sounds contrary to the advice of following the local norm.

We are at the the limits of advice that PF can give. You are advised to ask local experts in person rather than strangers on the Internet.

 

[kiki_danc]

That sounds contrary to the advice of following the local norm.

We are at the the limits of advice that PF can give. You are advised to ask local experts in person rather than strangers on the Internet.

Our contractors don't follow the local norms. They are into severe cost cutting... so I'm asking so I can make sure they make it right.. because as home owners.. contractors can fool us...

 

[kiki_danc]

So it's mandatory that grounding inside homes should be connected to the centertap of the power utility transformers? Because in the US, you made ground to neutral bonding precisely to have the neutral trip the circuit breaker in case of grounding fault. This is very important and at least let an expert answer this before this thread is locked. Because in my country more than half of homes don't have this centertap connections.

 

[anorlunda]

So it's mandatory that grounding inside homes should be connected to the centertap of the power utility transformers?

@sparkie sounds like he read your local codes. Did you? Because the answer to the mandatory question is necessarily a local answer.

 

[jim hardy]

So it's mandatory that grounding inside homes should be connected to the centertap of the power utility transformers?

Yes in the US that is required. That's so there is an all metal path for fault current to get back to the transformer winding from whence it came. Remember my flashlight analogy from the thread i referenced. All metal path assures enough current wil flow to quickly trip the circuit breaker.

Because in the US, you made ground to neutral bonding precisely to have the neutral(?) trip the circuit breaker in case of grounding fault.

No. That's word salad.
The Neutral is just a wire and doesn't trip anything.
CURRENT trips the breaker.
Neutral is tied to ground to keep the house wiring near ground potential , Two examples follow:

1. A single primary to secondary short in the pole transformer would raise an ungrounded secondary to however many thousands of volts is primary winding. That would overstress the insulation in the household appliances and wiring.
Grounding the secondary let's that single fault pass enough current to open the transformer's primary side fuse thereby protecting the house wiring ..
2. A lightning strike to the top of the pole will raise Earth's potential near the bottom of the pole as charge flows away from the base of the strike.
Neutral being connected to Earth at entrance to house will raise potential of house wiring to follow potential of Earth at the entrance,
thereby minimizing voltage between house wiring hence house appliances and the floors they sit on.
The whole house with its contents rides atop the elevated Earth potential as if on a magic carpet.
So there's little potential difference inside.

That's why there's a ground wire along the side of the pole from bottom to top, to encourage the lightning to find Earth there and not via the house..
In US that wire goes to bottom of pole and is coiled there into a spiral that maximizes surface area for charge to get into earth.
how the heck do i unindent? Neither editor works.

​

maybe now?

Because in my country more than half of homes don't have this centertap connections.

Are you telling me that there is no all metal path from the protective Earth grounding third contact of your power outlet receptacles to the transformer centertap
that can carry fault current back to its source?
Think about that for a minute.
IF
that's really true
THEN
you should never ever use an appliance that has a third protective Earth ground plug,
you should use instead only two prong double insulated appliances approved for two wire hookup.

If indeed noncompliance as widespread as you say
work up a presentation and take it to your local representative in government.
Tell him or her they need to come down on the code enforcement bureaucracy.
Rehearse your presentation until you can explain it very simply, as i did with the flashlight analogy.
Remind them that "...little wrongs are like dominoes . When you stack enough of them adjacent one another you have set the stage for a cataclysm. That's how the small things of the Earth confound the mighty."

I did not see any connection to the metal box in your recent photos.
I did see a lot of single pole breakers yet no neutral bar.
That's very confusing from here halfway around the globe.old jim

 

[sparkie]

The Philippine electrical code is very close to the NEC. I was informed of this on an electrician's forum quite a while ago by a respected contributor (a Philippino electrician). That being said, I checked out the link to the Philippine Electrical code, went to Article 2.50 and sure enough, grounding and bonding, like Jim posted.

250.5.3(b): Electrical continuity at service equipment, service raceways, and service conductor enclosures shall be ensured by one of the following methods...

250.2.5: (a) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at each service, in accordance with 2.50.2.5(a)(1) through (a)(5).

250.2.5 is pretty much where it says that there must be a grounding electrode conductor on the system supplied by the transformer, the grounded service conductor would be the center tap on the transformer in the OP's case. There are many options listed and acceptable for use as a grounding electrode system, but the easiest is usually driving a ground rod right below the service entrance and bonding your ground and neutral there.1.0.1.4(a) This Code is intended for mandatory application by government bodies exercising legal jurisdiction over electrical installations.

Section 1301. Electrical Regulations.

All electrical systems equipment and installation mentioned in this Code shall conform to the provisions of the Philippine Electrical Code, as adopted by the board of Electrical Engineering pursuant to Republic Act No. 184 otherwise known as the electrical Engineering Law.

It seems the main difference between the NEC and the PEC is that in the PEC, the government mandates that all jurisdictions adhere to the code. The code is not an option. In the above sections, the wording used is "shall", which is specifically defined as mandatory.

Those sections are additional and not included in the NEC. There is still the provision for the authority having jurisdiction, similar to 90.4 in the NEC, however exceptions to the rule in the documented code are allowed ONLY for the specific instance. Also, in the NEC code interpretation is left to the AHJ. In the Phillipines it is left up to a governing body. That says nothing for corruption / lack of enforcement in the area, but from what I am gathering here, yes, a grounding electrode system that is bonded at the service entrance conductor is required on new work. This has actually be really cool and I would love to hear more about it. Another possibility that I have not heard mentioned, was that perhaps your service is quite old, and grounding and bonding was not mandatory when it was built.

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks @sparkie

old jim

 

[kiki_danc]

Thanks Jim for your golden advices. I'd write a letter to the utility company to have a wire in my grounding connected to the centertap for breaker tripping purposes. Right now. Even my refrigerator and aircon in my own house just connect to two wires without a third grounding.

Sparkle. In my country. The contractor pays city hall bribe money to hasten the applications. So the inspectors never bother to check for example if actual grounding rods are installed. Here contractor can pay the inspectors $25 and the inspector would sign the document without looking at the actual installation. This is why many homes with incompetent contractors have many electrical works without proper grounding. This is fact you can ask others and I'm not making this up.

This is true for structural code which we copy verbatim from the US ACI.. and local structural designers never design for example the required special moment frames for seismic design. I have to spend 2 years learning how to manually compute structural design to verify each structural plan. They use software and forget the concepts. This is not exaggerations.

Anyway just for curiosity.. are India, Bangladesh or other poor third world countries also have many homes without grounding and aircon or refrigerator enclosure not connected to any ground?

 

[sparkie]

I don't know, but I have lots of Indians at my school. I'll talk to some of them about it. India is not a third world country anymore. They have their own silicon valley and a booming and growing manufacturing sector, though they still have a lot of poverty.

I thought you posted a picture of a grounding electrode conductor for your 0V on your transformer from utility, you just didn't have a grounding electrode system on your home.

 

[kiki_danc]

Here's a case in point. I bought a new refrigerator and its supplied plug is just 2 prong (the black plug in picture above).. no ground. If you will go to appliance stores nationwide.. refrigerators don't have ground. In other countries.. do your refrigerators really have ground? This is the front of the refrigerator. It's latest Panasonic inverter:

 

[kiki_danc]

Ok. Here's from my other countrymen including expats. He said:

https://www.philippines-expats.com/topic/29039-grounding-of-electric-appliances/

"With our new rental we just bought several appliances. I noticed that both the refrigerator and microwave came with a separate ground wire. The instructions said to connect it for safety purposes but not where to connect it to.

Now our house has both 2 pronged and 3 pronged outlets, but I know in the Philippines just because something is 3 pronged does not mean it is properly grounded.

I know nothing to speak of about electricity but don't believe there is any kind of grounding rod in the kitchen. Is there any value to using these grounding wires and where do I connect them to? "

another's reply to it:

"I think it is meant to be attached to the cabinet. If it shorts out it will trip the circuit breaker but don't take my word for that. "

and anothers' reply:

"Good thing. I have a couple of appliances with that grounding wire hanging on the back. Its been many years and it is not attached to anything. So long as I get no static shocks or feel the vibrations then I say TIP, right Mogo?"

and another's reply:

"In my area in north Luzon there is no third grounding wire supply by the utility co. Unlike the U.S. which use the three wire system with grounding protection for the user and appliances. Almost all filipino s i know unplug all appliances during bad weather, thunder and lightening. "

They don't know where to connect the hanging wire. So most either don't use it or just stick it to cabinet. What they don't know is that even if your stick the hanging wire to earth.. it won't trip the breaker if it's not connected to the centertap of the utility pole or transfomers, right? It may be basic thing to you but most of my country men don't know about it. I only learned it this 2 weeks here.

 

[jim hardy]

In other countries.. do your refrigerators really have ground?

yes.

 

[kiki_danc]

yes.
View attachment 231839

If you will read the 8 pages of thread here.. you will understand that we here literally don't use grounds. These discussions were by different people in my country.. it proves what I describe is true.. one of them wrote in page 4:

https://www.philippines-expats.com/topic/29039-grounding-of-electric-appliances/?page=4

"Over the years in Philippines I have had no trouble with shocks from most appliances but there are 3 that always give me trouble. They are cheap electric stovetops, coffee kettles, and submersible water heaters. I have had many shocks from each of these to the point where I don't use any of them if I can help it. "

and someone died from it: here:

"Aah the Philippines wiring !

Just this Tuesday we were told one of the wifes old friends died from an electric shock from a rice cooker !"

So it's worse than you think.

 

[jim hardy]

What they don't know is that even if your stick the hanging wire to earth.. it won't trip the breaker if it's not connected to the centertap of the utility pole or transfomers, right? It may be basic thing to you but most of my country men don't know about it. I only learned it this 2 weeks here.

Well you're getting by.
Progress not perfection ?

Are there any exposed metal parts on your fridge or are all surfaces plastic ?

I cannot in good faith advise you to take shortcuts.
Make your own house right , others will follow .

How frequent are electrocutions over there? That'll drive change........................

Curiosity - what refrigerant do you use over there ?
We still use Freon (R134 , R410 etx) because most varieties aren't very flammable. but it's expensive.
Europe allows Propane(R290) which is flammable but cheap and they're having explosions when it leaks .
To each his own
............................
Well i just learned US got on the Propane bandwagon last year. I hope they approve it for cars - it works great !
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-08/documents/epa_frdoc_0001-22694.pdf

old jim

 

[kiki_danc]

Well you're getting by.
Progress not perfection ?

Are there any exposed metal parts on your fridge or are all surfaces plastic ?

I'm not sure but magnets can easily stick to the surface of ref.. how can I tell if it's metallic surface? If I'll put a multimeter to measure continuity, the paint may block it.

If the power utilities won't put wires from their centertap to my ground in my home.. then I guess I'll spray all my metallic appliance with thick plastic paint? What kind can do this? Btw... in our neighborhood.. we have one transformer for every street with say 10 houses... the power utility would waste a lot of wires if they would tap the centertap to each house. In your country, the centertap goes to every dozen houses for one transformer?

Btw.. my office building is connected to the centertap because they made me buy the 3 phase open delta pole transformers for $4000 (because others were already used up). Since the transformers are partly mine, they have no trouble sharing a wire from centertap to my service entrance. But for other owners who don't own the transformers.. utilities are saving wires by not tapping the centertap to the service entrances of residences.

Btw.. in the 3 phase open delta.. one of the wires when tested against ground is 210 volts.. while the other 2 of the 3 phase is 120 volts.. Open Delta really do this? When the 210volts line is tested against one of the 2 other.. it is back to 120 volts.. what kind of phase manipulation can do this?

I cannot in good faith advise you to take shortcuts.
Make your own house right , others will follow .

How frequent are electrocutions over there? That'll drive change........................

Curiosity - what refrigerant do you use over there ?
We still use Freon (R134 , R410 etx) because most varieties aren't very flammable. but it's expensive.
Europe allows Propane(R290) which is flammable but cheap and they're having explosions when it leaks .
To each his own
............................
Well i just learned US got on the Propane bandwagon last year. I hope they approve it for cars - it works great !
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2018-08/documents/epa_frdoc_0001-22694.pdf

old jim

I'm not sure what refrigerant, i'll check.

 

[kiki_danc]

Some electrical engineers in my country are confused too. For example the following post is from an electrical engineer (He was confused about floating ground.. what is your comment about the floating ground?)

http://www.pinoyhandyman.com/forum/in-and-out-of-the-house/home-building-and-improvement/63-meralco-s-3-wire-service-entrace

"
Meralco's 3-wire service entrace
06-28-2007, 03:53 PM

Actually this is the continuation of a comment to an article here. My original comment was: http://www.pinoyhandyman.com/forum/in-and-out-of-the-house/home-building-and-improvement/63-meralco-s-3-wire-service-entrace (note Meralco is name of our major power distribution company)

"This is good news if what Meralco provides is a true ground circuit for the user. The 3rd wire could just be a lighting arrestor to protect Meralco's own investment with no real connection to the transformer's neutral. I'll open a topic in the forum ... this is too long.

Let me continue:

I'm an electrical engineer though I slept through a lot of my power subjects so I'm looking for answers also. My understanding is that to have a ground wire there actually have to be 4-wires from the secondary of the transformer on the post. Why there are 4 is a long story (3 phase/single phase) but suffice it to say that 3 will need to go to your house, two of which are the normal ones and the third is the ground wire. If someone wants the explanation, ask and I do my best, no as-is-where-is though.

It is hard to believe that Meralco is providing a true ground wire because not only is the 4th wire an additional expense but also the transformers used would have to be the more expensive Y-transformers. The normal transformer used is the less expensive delta-transformer. While you can get a "ground" with delta transformers, it is not a true ground with an actual physical point ("node" for the geeks) but rather is a "floating" ground. A floating ground is normally established by driving a long copper rod into the earth, you can sometimes see these beside electrical posts with a big wire from it running up the post. While "floating" grounds are ok for lightning protection, I have my doubts about Earth leakage current (the stuff that shocks us when an appliance is "grounded").

So I am wondering if this really a true ground."

Another person reply in the site which summarized what I was describing that centertap was not wired to most of our country house was :

"Notice however that these transformers near our house only have two wires coming to them. These two wires are two of the three at the high voltage 3 phase transformer, the neutral is not distributed. Rather I believe standard practice is to connect the neutral to an Earth ground. The soil is used to "distribute" it."

Exception is if you buy the transfomers or during Christmas when they get more generous from bonuses.. they tap the centertap to your house.. but usually it's not done for majority.

 

[jim hardy]

Btw.. in the 3 phase open delta.. one of the wires when tested against ground is 210 volts.. while the other 2 of the 3 phase is 120 volts.. Open Delta really do this? When the 210volts line is tested against one of the 2 other.. it is back to 120 volts.. what kind of phase manipulation can do this?

Look up 'high leg delta"
equilateral triangle 240 volts per side
by geometry distance from from L3 to N(more precisely to center of base) is √(240² -120²) = 207
and that's what you ought to read.
That you measure just 210 suggests to me that there's not anything really unexpected there.

Open delta just omits one of the transformers
(and that used to be a common delivery scheme in US but they're discouraging it in Colorado and some other states.)
so the triangle can distort if the transformers are electrically less than 'rigid'

When the 210volts line is tested against one of the 2 other.. it is back to 120 volts.. what kind of phase manipulation can do this?

Get an architect's scale and drawing compass
construct yourself a triangle to scale with sides in proportion to your measured voltages
base L1-L2 = 240 (or whatever you measure) units long
""210 volts line is tested against one of the 2 other.. it is back to 120 volts.""
tells me L1-L3 and L2-:L3 are both 120
and L3-Gnd is 210Can you draw a triangle that meets those constraints?
Kirchoff's voltage law says the voltages MUST form a closed geometric shape , and with just three terminals it has to be a triangle but not necessarily equilateral.
Voltage between ground and Neutral terminal in middle of bottom transformer is unknown .
You should be able to find it from voltage measurements and graphics.

Make careful measurements and double check them for it's tedious redrawing the triangles
You might find there's voltage between N and Ground . Especially if there's no wire on N..
Or you might find the triangle isn't quite equilateral and L3 isn't right above N.

Anyhow that's an exercise you should undertake to deepen your understanding.

Keep up the good work and you'll become the " Go To Guy " fpr electrical
but keep in mind - "The biggest part of being smart is being aware of how little we know."
Mother Nature reminds me of that frequently.

old jim

 

[jim hardy]

I have had many shocks from each of these to the point where I don't use any of them if I can help it. "

and someone died from it: here:

"Aah the Philippines wiring !

Just this Tuesday we were told one of the wifes old friends died from an electric shock from a rice cooker !"

So it's worse than you think.

If that's the case, then the time is ripe in Philippines for a Ralph Nader type to start a movement.
"Electric companies are killing people !"

I'm surprised some politician has not already lept onto the matter.

A responsible newspaper reporter who understood the subject matter could write a compelling series of articles to raise public awareness.

"When the student is ready a teacher will appear".
Might be you're going to be that teacher.

GFCI outlets would save lives. But the ones I'm familar with need a ground connection.

 

[anorlunda]

It seems that this thread is drifting into politics. The OP'S original question is answered.

Thread closed.