Tug of War: Does Force Matter for Winning?

[fog37]

Hello,

In the game of tug of war, the team that wins is the one that exerts the largest force and pulls the other team their way. However, a team can win only if the force they produce is matched by the static friction between the floor and their feet, correct?

But what would happen if the stronger team had to exert a force $F_{pull}$ to win and that force is larger than the maximum available static friction? I think the team would start sliding and not win...Am I seeing things correctly?

Thanks!

 

[.Scott]

Yes.
So the key element is not how usually hard you can pull, but how much traction you can generate.
Traction is a combination of friction and

 

[fog37]

Hi .Scott...

You were saying that traction is a combination of friction and what else?

 

[Dale]

the team that wins is the one that exerts the largest force

What does Newton’s 3rd law say? Is it even possible for one team to exert a larger force?

 

[jbriggs444]

The third law is silent on the matter. The teams do not pull on one another. They each pull on the rope. Newton's second is arguably the relevant one.

 

[Dale]

The mass of the rope is negligible compared to the mass of the participants, and in any case the rope moves relatively little.

 

[jbriggs444]

The mass of the rope is negligible compared to the mass of the participants, and in any case the rope moves relatively little.

The movement of the rope is the condition for winning!

 

[Dale]

The movement of the rope is the condition for winning!

That doesn’t make the rope’s mass non negligible.

 

[jbriggs444]

That doesn’t make the rope’s mass non negligible.

Which invokes the second law, QED.

 

[russ_watters]

The winning team does exert a larger force...on the ground.

 

[Dale]

Which invokes the second law, QED.

No, a massless rope means that the forces exerted on the rope by the two teams are equal at all times regardless of the acceleration of the rope, Newton’s 2nd law is uninformative. A negligible mass rope with minimal acceleration means that the forces on the rope are approximately equal at all times, Newton’s 2nd law is minimally informative.

The winning team does exert a larger force...on the ground.

Exactly. The forces on the rope are approximately the same. The forces on the ground can be dramatically different.

 

[jbriggs444]

No, a massless rope means that the forces exerted on the rope by the two teams are equal at all times regardless of the acceleration of the rope, Newton’s 2nd law is uninformative.

Newton's second law is what tells you that a massless rope means that the forces on the rope by the two teams are equal and opposite. It is Newton's third law which is silent in that particular regard.

 

[jbriggs444]

The winning team does exert a larger force...on the ground.

Given certain other assumptions about the situation, yes.

 

[Dale]

Newton's second law is what tells you that a massless rope means that the forces on the rope by the two teams are equal and opposite.

Yes, that is the only use of Newton’s second law here. It provides no insight about the winning team.

It is Newton's third law which is silent in that particular regard.

But that particular regard is not the interesting one here. The forces on the rope don’t distinguish the winners from the losers.