Understanding the GUT Scale: Merging Fundamental Forces at High Energies

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of merging fundamental forces at high energies, particularly focusing on the Grand Unified Theory (GUT) scale. Participants explore the implications of forces having the same strength at high energies and whether this leads to the conclusion that they are fundamentally the same force. The conversation includes theoretical considerations, conceptual clarifications, and challenges regarding the behavior of forces at different energy levels.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how the idea that all forces have the same strength at high energies translates to them being the same force, suggesting that they could still act differently.
  • There is a proposal that the observation of forces merging at high energies is merely a hint and does not imply they are fundamentally identical.
  • One participant references the electroweak force as an example where two forces (weak and electromagnetic) emerge from a single force at high energies, but behave differently at low energies due to symmetry breaking.
  • Another participant expresses confusion about electroweak symmetry breaking and seeks clarification on how it affects the behavior of forces if W bosons were nearly massless.
  • It is stated that an unbroken SU(2) force would not be identical to electromagnetism, while an unbroken U(1) force is considered identical to electromagnetism.
  • A later reply speculates on the characteristics of an unbroken SU(2) force, suggesting it would be a long-range attractive force for SU(2) charges.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of forces having the same strength at high energies. There is no consensus on whether this leads to the conclusion that they are the same force, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of unbroken forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific theoretical frameworks such as SU(2) and U(1) without fully resolving the implications of these models or the conditions under which they apply. The discussion includes assumptions about symmetry breaking and the behavior of forces at different energy levels that are not fully explored.

nolxiii
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So I've heard it talked about how how at high energies all the strength of all fundamental forces are expected to merge together to single force, but don't quite get how you get from "all the forces have the same strength at high energies" to "all the forces are really the same force."

Couldn't they have the same strength but still act differently? And if they acted the same at high energies wouldn't their behavior at low energies still differentiate them into separate phenomenon?
 
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nolxiii said:
So I've heard it talked about how how at high energies all the strength of all fundamental forces are expected to merge together to single force, but don't quite get how you get from "all the forces have the same strength at high energies" to "all the forces are really the same force."

You are right, it does not follow. It's just a "maybe", a hint from the data that maybe it's one force.

And if they acted the same at high energies wouldn't their behavior at low energies still differentiate them into separate phenomenon?

We have an example. Electroweak SU(2) force is one force, but at low energies it "breaks" into two seemingly completely different things: W+- bosons are quite different from that part of SU(2) which is part of photons.
 
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Right on. Still struggling somewhat to build a mental model of how the electroweak symmetry breaking works, the link below I think helped a bit though. Am I understanding this right that if the symmetry just happened to break in such a way that W bosons were (nearly?) massless that the weak and electromagnetic forces would still behave more or less identically?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Forces/unify.html
 
An unbroken SU(2) force would not be identical to electromagnetism.
An unbroken U(1) force is identical to electromagnetism.
 
nikkkom said:
An unbroken SU(2) force would not be identical to electromagnetism.
An unbroken U(1) force is identical to electromagnetism.

what would this unbroken SU(2) force look like?
 
It would be a long-range force, IIRC attractive for any SU(2) charges (unlike electricity, where like charges repel).
 

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