Understanding Total Gain and Phase Angle in Closed Loop Control Systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on understanding how to calculate the total phase angle in closed loop control systems, particularly in relation to the total gain. Participants explore the relationship between gain and phase angle, and the implications of using complex numbers in these calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about calculating the total phase angle, suggesting that they believe it might be a straightforward addition.
  • Another participant explains that each frequency corresponds to a complex number, indicating that the total gain can be represented as a complex number where the modulus gives the gain and the argument gives the phase shift.
  • A further contribution details how to express the gains and phase angles in terms of complex exponentials, suggesting that manipulation of these complex numbers is necessary to find the net phase angle.
  • One participant notes that for real values of A, B, and C, the phase shift is zero, but emphasizes that this is an unrealistic scenario, highlighting the need to consider frequency-dependent complex expressions.
  • Another participant suggests a method for finding the total phase shift by rewriting the transfer function and separating it into real and imaginary parts, followed by applying the definition of phase shift.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the method for calculating the total phase angle, with differing views on whether it can be simply added or requires more complex manipulation of numbers. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need for understanding complex numbers in both polar and rectangular forms, indicating that the discussion may depend on the participants' familiarity with these mathematical concepts.

StripesUK
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Homework Statement


A closed loop control system has three components, Controller, Process, and Measuring System. Each has it's own gain and phase angle. I understand how to find the total of the gain but I'm unsure as to how to find the total phase angle?

Homework Equations


Total Gain=
\frac{A*B}{1+(A*B)*C}

The Attempt at a Solution


Using this formula on the phase angle doesn't give a sensible answer. My instincts tell me that it is just straight addition? I know I've not got very far on this myself, just a nudge in the right direction would be hugely useful.

Many thanks.
 
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Every frequency corresponds to a complex number. That leads to a complex number for $$ \frac{A*B}{1+(A*B)*C} $$.
The modulus of the complex number is the gain and the argument is the phase shift.
 
You have
A = |A|exp(jθA)
B = |B|exp(jθB)
C = |C|exp(jθC)
then combine these in your formula to get the net θ.
You do have to know how to manipulate complex numbers both in polar and rectangular form.[/SUB]
 
For real values of A,B and C the phase shift is (of course) zero - trivial, but unrealistic solution.
Hence, all of these expressions must be considered to be frequency-dependent (complex expressions).
For finding the total phase shift you have nothing to do than (a) to rewrite the transfer function and split it into a real and an imag. part, and (b) apply the definition for phase shift.
 

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