Using Norton's Theorem to Solve for Io in a Complex Circuit

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Homework Statement


Find Io using Norton's Theorem

Homework Equations


Circuit schematic with a 2 mA current source, 10 V, 8 V and 12 V voltage sources, resistors 2 kΩ, 3 kΩ (two), 4 kΩ, 6 kΩ (two), and current I0 through the middle 6 kΩ branch.


The Attempt at a Solution


I broke it into the following circuit:
Circuit schematic with a 2 mA current source, 4 kΩ, 6 kΩ, 3 kΩ and 6 kΩ resistors, a 12 V source, an 8 V source, and current I0 labeled, with a handwritten 6 kΩ label and a separate hand-drawn branch on the left.

I would like to break it down some more but if I open the node between 3k and 6k (ohms), and 6k and 6k (ohms), I run into problems...

What should I do to make sure I stick to Norton's Theor
 
Attachments
  • Circuit schematic with a 10 V source and 2 kΩ, 3 kΩ and 4 kΩ resistors, a 2 mA current source, a 12 V source, a 6 kΩ resistor carrying I0, an 8 V source, and a second 6 kΩ resistor.
    Screenshot - 06112015 - 11:09:31 AM.png
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I don't think you're restricted to using Norton's Theorem exclusively. It should be sufficient to determine the Norton equivalent of the network driving the current through the 6 k "load" using whatever means you wish. You might begin by suppressing all the sources and determining the Norton resistance.

By the way, 2 k + 3 k is not 6 k :wink:
 
I just took a while and solved the problem by hand using mesh analysis with a supermesh and then put the circuit into QUCS and verified my answer.

I am having a hard time seeing how it would be easily done with norton's theorem or thevenin's theorem. I got a value for the equivalent resistance seen by the load resistor but breaking down the circuit to find the voltage across the terminals of the load resistor would lead me back to using mesh.

Screenshot of a QUCS circuit schematic labelled dc simulation, with a red-annotated supermesh drawn across resistors R1 to R6, sources V1, V2, V3 and current source I=2 mA, and loop currents marked I1, I2 and I3.
 
Last edited:
I'd go for a Thevenin approach and Nodal Analysis. Finding the Thevenin resistance (same as Norton resistance) is pretty easy with the sources suppressed. Removing the 6k load to open-circuit the output (For Thevenin you want the open-circuit voltage) leaves a single essential node. The rest is just finding particular potentials along branches.
 
Yeah I agree that would be another way. converting the thevenin equivalent into a norton equivalent. The equivalent resistance is easy to find

Screenshot of a DC circuit schematic in circuit simulation software, with resistors R1 3000 Ohm, R2 2000 Ohm, R3 4000 Ohm, R5 and R6 6000 Ohm, a 2 mA current source, a 10 V source V1, an 8 V source V2, a 12 V source V3, and voltmeter probes labelled Vx and Vy.


The difference in voltages Vx and Vy is the thevenin equivalent voltage
 
gneill said:
I don't think you're restricted to using Norton's Theorem exclusively. It should be sufficient to determine the Norton equivalent of the network driving the current through the 6 k "load" using whatever means you wish. You might begin by suppressing all the sources and determining the Norton resistance.

By the way, 2 k + 3 k is not 6 k :wink:

At first I didn't know what you meant by "driving the current through the 6 k "load" using whatever means you wish." but with FOIWATER's picture:

Screenshot of a QUCS circuit schematic labelled dc simulation, showing R1 3000 Ohm, R2 2000 Ohm, R3 4000 Ohm, R4 6000 Ohm, R5 6000 Ohm, V1 U=10 V, V2 U=8 V, V3 U=12 V and a current source I=2 mA, with probes Pr1, Pr2 and Pr3.


I am able to understand now. Thank you! I will try my best to solve this using the techniques you suggested!
 
I was able to find the Voltage between the open circuit using Thevenin and Node analysis: I got Vth = ~10.8 V (making Vy facing positive and Vx near negative), and Rth = 33/5. So the short circuit current is 10.8/6.6=1.6464 and current division between the load and 6.6 KOhms makes the load current 0.857. This hsould be negative because of the way the current is facing and the way I had my voltages set up. Thanks everyone!

(Btw FOIWATER, your R6 resister should be 3k)
 
Follow up question on using QUCS:
I'm trying to make a current controlled voltage source matching this diagram...:
Circuit schematic with an 8 mA current source, a 4 kΩ current-controlled voltage source labeled 4 kI_x, a 2 mA current source, resistors 3 kΩ, 6 kΩ, 2 kΩ and 1 kΩ, and the current I_x.

Im not sure how exactly the current controlled voltage source is used in qucs.. Examples help, but I didnt know the right name for it in the examples given in qucs

Circuit schematic from QUCS showing a dc simulation with current source I1 = 8 mA, resistors R1 = 3000 Ohm, R2 = 6000 Ohm, R4 = 2000 Ohm, R5 = 1000 Ohm, a current source I2 = 2 mA, and a controlled source SRC1 with G = 4000.

Code:
<Qucs Schematic 0.0.18>
<Properties>
  <View=-50,-814,893,-265,1,287,0>
  <Grid=10,10,1>
  <DataSet=5.11.dat>
  <DataDisplay=5.11.dpl>
  <OpenDisplay=1>
  <Script=5.11.m>
  <RunScript=0>
  <showFrame=0>
  <FrameText0=Title>
  <FrameText1=Drawn By:>
  <FrameText2=Date:>
  <FrameText3=Revision:>
</Properties>
<Symbol>
  <.ID -20 -16 SUB>
  <Line -20 20 40 0 #000080 2 1>
  <Line 20 20 0 -40 #000080 2 1>
  <Line -20 -20 40 0 #000080 2 1>
  <Line -20 20 0 -40 #000080 2 1>
</Symbol>
<Components>
  <R R1 1 230 -450 15 -26 0 1 "3000 Ohm" 1 "26.85" 0 "0.0" 0 "0.0" 0 "26.85" 0 "US" 0>
  <R R2 1 440 -450 15 -26 0 1 "6000 Ohm" 1 "26.85" 0 "0.0" 0 "0.0" 0 "26.85" 0 "US" 0>
  <R R4 1 530 -630 -26 15 0 0 "2000 Ohm" 1 "26.85" 0 "0.0" 0 "0.0" 0 "26.85" 0 "US" 0>
  <Idc I1 1 80 -450 18 -26 0 1 "8 mA" 1>
  <IProbe Pr1 1 600 -430 16 -26 1 3>
  <GND * 1 430 -310 0 0 0 0>
  <CCVS SRC1 1 340 -620 34 -26 1 3 "4000" 1 "4000" 0>
  <.DC DC1 1 40 -540 0 43 0 0 "26.85" 0 "0.001" 0 "1 pA" 0 "1 uV" 0 "no" 0 "150" 0 "no" 0 "none" 0 "CroutLU" 0>
  <Idc I2 1 420 -780 -26 18 0 0 "2 mA" 1>
</Components>
<Wires>
  <440 -580 500 -580 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <230 -310 430 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <230 -590 230 -480 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <560 -620 600 -620 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <230 -420 230 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <440 -580 440 -480 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <440 -420 440 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <500 -630 500 -580 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <560 -630 560 -620 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <80 -310 230 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <80 -420 80 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <80 -480 230 -480 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <230 -590 310 -590 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <440 -310 600 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <600 -400 600 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <600 -620 600 -460 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <430 -310 440 -310 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <370 -590 370 -580 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <370 -580 440 -580 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <370 -670 370 -650 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <370 -670 560 -670 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <560 -670 560 -630 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <310 -660 310 -650 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <310 -660 500 -660 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <500 -660 500 -630 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <230 -780 230 -590 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <230 -780 390 -780 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <600 -780 600 -620 "" 0 0 0 "">
  <450 -780 600 -780 "" 0 0 0 "">
</Wires>
<Diagrams>
</Diagrams>
<Paintings>
</Paintings>
 
R4 is shorted by your wiring of the controlled current source "sense line". Note that there is a path from the top of R5 to the top of R2 that does not pass through R4!
Circuit schematic from a dc simulation showing current sources I1 (8 mA) and I2 (2 mA), resistors R1 (3000 Ohm), R2 (6000 Ohm), R4 (2000 Ohm), R5 (1000 Ohm), controlled source SRC1 (G=4000), and probes Pr2, Pr3, Pr5 and Pr6, with a thick blue highlight tracing a wire path.