Vaccines: Overwhelming Benefits, Few Risks

[member 342489]

"Again, because people consider both risk and benefit in making decisions. We consider the benefit of our kid participating in soccer to be worth the risk of them dying in a fatal collision along the way. That is the only valid way to make decisions, and the reason why your “risk only” argument fails from the outset."

Yes I fully agree.
It was more the pollution factor i was referring to, not only cars.

 

[jbriggs444]

Yes I understand
Anyway, I still believe, that people who starts the program, and then experience ekstraordinary side-effects have the right to be scared, and have the right to choose not to continue.

Right to be scared, sure. We are not the emotion police. But you do not have the right plead special circumstances because you are especially scared.

If you have good reason to be especially scared, that's different. But you'll need a doctor's note at the very least.

 

[Dale]

Anyway, I still believe, that people who starts the program, and then experience ekstraordinary side-effects have the right to be scared, and have the right to choose not to continue.

Those individuals with adverse reactions to vaccines do have the right to cease vaccination, and general medical practice is to not continue the course for such individuals. However, their friends and family do not have the right to abstain. In fact, it is substantially more important for the friends and family of such a person to be properly vaccinated than for individuals in the general population. Else they risk causing the negligent death of their own loved one.

The non vaccinated person is immune-compromised and is vulnerable to the disease. The only thing that can protect that person is herd immunity. If the herd immunity is compromised then that individual is the most vulnerable segment of the population. The most critical part of herd immunity is the immunity of the immediate family and friends.

Such individuals are also known to have poorer prognosis from the disease. If you have a kid like that in your family then you better make sure that everyone else around them is vaccinated. Using that child’s experience as a general justification to avoid vaccination is just plain backwards. It should be the opposite.

 

[member 342489]

Right to be scared, sure. We are not the emotion police. But you do not have the right plead special circumstances because you are especially scared.

If you have good reason to be especially scared, that's different. But you'll need a doctor's note at the very least.

That would be fine, as long as the decision is not entirely up to the doctor.
The situation I have based my opinion upon, are if the vaccination-process have begun, and things did not go as expected.

 

[member 342489]

Those individuals do have the right to cease vaccination, and general medical practice is to not continue the course for such individuals. However, their friends and family do not have the right to abstain. In fact, it is substantially more important for the friends and family of such a person to be properly vaccinated than for individuals in the general population. Else they risk causing the negligent death of their own loved one.

The non vaccinated person is immune-compromised and is vulnerable to the disease. The only thing that can protect that person is herd immunity. If the herd immunity is compromised then that individual is the most vulnerable segment of the population. The most critical part of herd immunity is the immunity of the immediate family and friends.

Such individuals are also known to have poorer prognosis from the disease. If you have a kid like that in your family then you better make sure that everyone else around them is vaccinated. Using that child’s experience as a general justification to avoid vaccination is just plain backwards. It should be the opposite.

I fully agree :-)
Thanks a lot for this debate ( to all )

 

[Dale]

Yes I fully agree.

I am not sure how you can claim to fully agree based on what you have written. As yet you have failed to consider the benefit and continue to invalidly consider only the risk.

 

[Orodruin]

I do not think anybody has ever argued that persons with adverse reactions to a vaccine or others (such as people with autoimune diseases) that have valid medical reasons should be forced to undergo vaccination. However, you should not be allowed to reject your own vaccination (or your child’s) on the basis of another individual not being able to undergo vaccination without adverse effect (for example, some people may be allergic to components of the vaccine - questions about these things are standard in a pre-vaccination health declaration). As Dale said, it is even more important that people around such individuals are immunized.

 

[member 342489]

I am not sure how you can claim to fully agree based on what you have written when you as yet have failed to consider the benefit and continue to invalidly consider only the risk.

Because, I feel that you have begun understanding, that I am not a anti-wax person.

I have not claimed anywhere in this debate, that vaccines are a bad thing, only that it should not be forced upon people.
My example have from the beginning been, that a person who experience serious side-effects, can choose not to continue, without beeing punished in some way, like beeing isolated from society.

I am perhaps not the best to formulate things, but I have had a feeling, that you, and others, have misjudged my reason to this debate from the beginning. All my arguments have been based on a person who starts the program.

So if want you are saying, that there exist legetimate reasons to not continue vaccination already begun, then we agree.

 

[phinds]

My example have from the beginning been, that a person who experience serious side-effects, can choose not to continue, without beeing punished in some way, like beeing isolated from society.

So you are fine with someone who is not vaccinated just wandering around potentially infecting others? I'm not and I think the point of most of the posts in this thread is that neither is anyone else here except you. I don't care WHY someone is not vaccinated, I don't want them wandering around compromising our herd immunity.

 

[Dale]

Because, I feel that you have begun understanding, that I am not a anti-wax person.

My principle objection is to your invalid reasoning, not to you as a person. Unfortunately, your invalid reasoning, which you have not corrected, is a common fallacious argument used by the anti-vaccination movement.

 

[Orodruin]

Then you are fighting a strawman argument. Nobody has suggested to vaccinate in cases where there are legitimate reasons not to. You have also repeatedly argued for an individual choice. This to me is incompatible with claiming that you have a person who suffers from allergy to the vaccine or similar. That person does not have a choice either!

So you are fine with someone who is not vaccinated just wandering around potentially infecting others? I'm not and I think the point of most of the posts in this thread is that neither is anyone else here except you. I don't care WHY someone is not vaccinated, I don't want them wandering around compromising our herd immunity.

This is a silly argument. It is because of the people who do not have the medical option to vaccinate themselves that we need herd immunity in the first place.

 

[member 342489]

I do not think anybody has ever argued that persons with adverse reactions to a vaccine or others (such as people with autoimune diseases) that have valid medical reasons should be forced to undergo vaccination. However, you should not be allowed to reject your own vaccination (or your child’s) on the basis of another individual not being able to undergo vaccination without adverse effect (for example, some people may be allergic to components of the vaccine - questions about these things are standard in a pre-vaccination health declaration). As Dale said, it is even more important that people around such individuals are immunized.

Since so many misunderstand, its problaby my ability to formulate myself clearly that is the problem.

I am pro a society can have norms, rules and medical programs.

I am pro vaccination.

All my inputs have been based on the right to deny to continue an already started vaccination program.

 

[Dale]

You have also repeatedly argued for an individual choice. This to me is incompatible with claiming that you have a person who suffers from allergy to the vaccine or similar. That person does not have a choice either!

Well said. This cannot be a matter of individual choice. Eradication of diseases has already been delayed or compromised by this insanity.

 

[member 342489]

So you are fine with someone who is not vaccinated just wandering around potentially infecting others? I'm not and I think the point of most of the posts in this thread is that neither is anyone else here except you. I don't care WHY someone is not vaccinated, I don't want them wandering around compromising our herd immunity.

Yes I am fine with that, until the person gets sick, and when a doctor declares them well, they shoul be allowed back in society again.

 

[russ_watters]

Perhaps you are willing to risk your kids health, after you experience severe complications simultaneous with the vaccine, I would not.

Well, I will say that people who have been on the wrong side of extremely bad luck are among a rare few who are allowed to be irrational on the subject of that bad luck. But that does not mean governments should allow them to act irrationally, particularly when it comes to endangering the health of others, especially children. I sympathize, but also wish to help protect you and others from further negative consequences from that experience.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes I am fine with that, until the person gets sick, and when a doctor declares them well, they shoul be allowed back in society again.

By the time they are Ill they are walking round infecting people, possibly your child who has an underlying condition.
If you are immunised the virus is attacked as soon as it enters the body and does not get a chance to complete it's life cycle to be passed on to the next host.

 

[BWV]

Stick a fork in this one, arguing with anti-vaxxers is as much use as arguing with creationists or holocaust deniers. A lot of great responses that appear lost on Mr E there

 

[phinds]

Stick a fork in this one, arguing with anti-vaxxers is as much use as arguing with creationists or holocaust deniers. A lot of great responses that appear lost on Mr E there

Yeah, it's pretty amazing that this thread has gone on for this long. It's clearly WAY past the point of diminishing returns.

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

Centers of Disease Control and Prevention:

People of all ages need tetanus vaccines!
https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/58994
Some excerpts from MedlinePlus:

“Finding better ways of educating the world is the best vaccine out there.”
[excerpt}

4 Spring 2008 NIH MedlinePlus

Vaccines Stop Illness To prevent the spread of disease, it is more important than ever to vaccinate your child.
Vaccine Safety In light of recent questions about vaccine safety, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has offered the following information for parents: “Vaccines are held to the highest standard of safety. The United States currently has the safest, most effective vaccine supply in history. Law requires years of testing before a vaccine can be licensed. Once in use, vaccines are continually monitored for safety and efficacy. Immunizations, like any medication, can cause side effects. However, a decision not to immunize a child also involves risk. It is a decision to put the child and others who come into contact with him or her at risk of contracting a disease that could be dangerous or deadly. The CDC and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) continually work to make already safe vaccines even safer.” In the rare event that a vaccine injures a child, he or she may be compensated through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP); call 1-800-338-2382.”
https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/pdf/spring2008.pdf

It has been a rough day for me. I need a cup of hot tea! I'm tired too much drama.

 

[BillTre]

More data:
This NY Times article on the HPV (Herpes Papilliloma Virus) vaccine discusses a Lancet article involving studies in several countries. It shows the rates of infections, genital and anal warts, and precancerous lesions in young women and girls.
The decreases among the immunized varied between about 1/3 and 2/3 depending on the group of people and the result being looked at.
Herd immunity aspects are also discussed.

 

[pinball1970]

More data:
This NY Times article on the HPV (Herpes Papilliloma Virus) vaccine discusses a Lancet article involving studies in several countries. It shows the rates of infections, genital and anal warts, and precancerous lesions in young women and girls.
The decreases among the immunized varied between about 1/3 and 2/3 depending on the group of people and the result being looked at.
Herd immunity aspects are also discussed.

It's not worth a $500 guitar tho according @dr Courtney...

That was not a low blow, his religious/moral position means he/his family have practically zero risk.

I assume he would be in the vax camp on MMR

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

Hello everyone

It occurred to me that my Coonhound Gracie has the following:
Leptospirosis Annual Immunization
Bordetella Immunization
Rattlesnake Annual Immunization
Rabies 3 year Immunization
Distemper & Parvo 3 year immunization

Merlina my cat is pretty much in the house except when I walk her on leash in my outdoor garden. I also have a large indoor atrium in the house she plays in. She does get a small dose of shots every year but Gracie the hound has a lot more shots!

I hope everyone has a great day. I have to walk the hound at the park.

 

[BWV]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-anti-vax-movement-is-now-infecting-cats-and-dogsGrazyna Medynski believes rabies vaccines are dangerous.

She cites her three pets as examples: Her cat Doeno has a twitch, her dog Max had a painful eruption, and her other dog Min is now afraid to go up and down stairs.

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-anti-vax-movement-is-now-infecting-cats-and-dogsGrazyna Medynski believes rabies vaccines are dangerous.

She cites her three pets as examples: Her cat Doeno has a twitch, her dog Max had a painful eruption, and her other dog Min is now afraid to go up and down stairs.

Well like my husband would say to Grazyna Medynski, " We trust our Veterinary Center. Our doctor there is the best of the best.

 

[russ_watters]

Grazyna Medynski believes rabies vaccines are dangerous.

She cites her three pets as examples: Her cat Doeno has a twitch, her dog Max had a painful eruption, and her other dog Min is now afraid to go up and down stairs.

Fortunately, Mean and Median are doing ok.

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

Core Vaccines
Recommended or required by state law because they protect against prevalent, life-threatening or zoonotic diseases such as rabies.
•Parvovirus
•Distemper
•Adenovirus-2
•Rabies
Non-Core Vaccines
Optional, recommended according to an animal’s risk of exposure and lifestyle considerations.
•Parainfluenza virus
•Bordetella (kennel cough)
•Leptospira
•Lyme disease

Not Generally Recommended
Of limited benefit and may cause adverse events.
•Corona virus
•Giardia
•Adenovirus-1
•Rattlesnake venom
Source: University of California, Davis, Center for Companion Animal Health, Fall 2006

 

[Orodruin]

For those interested, the Guardian today has an opinion piece written by an MSF doctor that personally witnessed the horrors of a measles outbreak.

 

[pinball1970]

For those interested, the Guardian today has an opinion piece written by an MSF doctor that personally witnessed the horrors of a measles outbreak.

@Brian E should read this piece.

 

[Rive]

For those interested, the Guardian today has an opinion piece written by an MSF doctor that personally witnessed the horrors of a measles outbreak.

Good (?) one.

My favorite killing move is this cemetery from a legendary age. A bit hard to read the text on the table but worth the effort for making a fast statistics.

 

[Orodruin]

A big part of the problem is that people nowadays are unaware of the effects and dangers of diseases such as measles. I have a personal story where I was talking to an anti-vaxer who was arguing to not vaccinate his child. His argument was that he had never heard of anybody among his family or friends that had died from measles so I went online and did some digging for references. Measles had been declared eradicated in his home country through vaccination programs a couple of years before his birth ...

Of course, this is the ultimate goal, but on a global level. Once a disease has been globally eradicated there is no point in vaccinating against it. Children today are not vaccinated against smallpox because the need simply is not there. The polio eradication initiative has a post-eradication plan that includes the cessation of polio vaccination.