Various ways of doing work to minimize entropy increase

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of which methods of slowing down a vehicle are likely to minimize the overall increase in entropy. Participants explore various approaches, including traditional braking methods and alternative techniques, while considering the efficiency and dissipation involved in each method.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests several methods for slowing down a vehicle, questioning their relative efficiency in terms of entropy increase.
  • Another participant argues that the question may not be answerable due to numerous unknowns and suggests that all proposed methods likely involve significant dissipation and entropy increase.
  • A comparison is made between traditional braking and regenerative braking, with the latter proposed as a potentially better method for minimizing entropy increase by converting kinetic energy into stored energy.
  • There is a clarification that regenerative braking is fundamentally different from applying a magnetic field to the vehicle, emphasizing that regenerative braking directly applies mechanical force to slow the car.
  • Some participants express that while regenerative braking may reduce the increase in unusable energy, it does not imply that energy itself becomes entropy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the answerability of the original question, with some believing it is too complex to resolve definitively. There is also disagreement on the equivalence of regenerative braking and applying a magnetic field, indicating a lack of consensus on the methods discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that reasonable assumptions are necessary for evaluating the methods, and there may be too many unknowns to arrive at a clear conclusion regarding entropy increase for each method.

IvanAndreevich
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[Moderator's note: Recategorized thread to "Basic".]

While driving alone through the beautiful scenery of Banff and Yoho national parks, a question formed in my mind.

Which of these modes of slowing down a vehicle by an equal amount is likely to minimize the resulting overall increase in entropy? I’m assuming that the reduction in kinetic energy can be accomplished in a less or more efficient manner.

1) Applying the brakes.
2) Opening all the windows.
3) Turning on the AC compressor, and letting the turning of the wheels power it.
4) Downshifting into a lower gear, and using engine braking.
5) Applying a rainfall.
6) Applying a magnetic field.

Any other methods that can be suggested are welcome, if they make any difference to the outcome.

A number of reasonable assumptions would need to be made about the specifics involved, and that’s fine. I realize that there may be too many unknowns and not enough specifics, or that the answer may very well be ‘same’ for all the modes involved.

I get a sense that this is either a really easy problem, or a really hard one.
 
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I don't think this question is answerable as you ask it; there are too many unknowns, and all of the methods you suggest involve a lot of dissipation and hence will probably involve a large and not easily estimated increase in entropy.

A more interesting comparison would be between any of the methods you suggest--but #1 is probably the best since it's at least the usual method for a conventional vehicle--and the following:

7) Use regenerative braking to convert the vehicle's kinetic energy to stored energy in some storage device (the usual one in a hybrid vehicle is a battery).
 
Technically, that would be a cooler version of #6, right?

That should obviously be better in the long run, since some of what would become entropy is stored as usable energy, right? Since it actually improves fuel economy, whereas all of the above should have the same effect.
 
IvanAndreevich said:
Technically, that would be a cooler version of #6, right?

No. Applying a magnetic field to the car as a whole is not at all the same as regenerative braking. As far as the car as a whole is concerned, regenerative braking is just braking; it applies mechanical force at the wheels to slow the car down. The only way magnetic fields come into it is the magnetic fields inside the motor/generator that is recapturing the energy and putting it into the battery.

IvanAndreevich said:
That should obviously be better in the long run, since some of what would become entropy is stored as usable energy, right?

Basically, yes, although the way you've put this is not quite right. The correct way to put it would be that some of what would become unusable energy is stored as usable energy. Energy does not "become entropy". Entropy increases when the amount of unusable energy increases and the amount of usable energy decreases, but energy and entropy are still distinct things.
 

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