Virtual work in Atwood's machine

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Lagrange's equations to Atwood's machine, specifically addressing the treatment of tension in the rope and the nature of constraints in the system. Participants explore the implications of holonomic constraints and the role of virtual work in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the tension in the rope can be ignored, suggesting that since the masses can move vertically, the constraining forces should do virtual work.
  • Another participant asserts that the constraint is holonomic, indicating that while forces do work, the total work sums to zero due to the constraint equation.
  • A participant notes that the motion in Atwood's machine is one-dimensional, with gravity as the only external conservative force, leading to specific calculations.
  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the statement that constraint forces do not appear in the Lagrangian formulation and seeks a formal approach to deduce that the sum of the constraint forces is zero.
  • A later reply suggests that the pulley serves to justify the constraint physically, implying that it can be ignored in the analysis as it is massless and frictionless.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of tension and the implications of holonomic constraints. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the formal deduction of the sum of constraint forces being zero.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the constraint equation ##x_1+x_2=l##, which may require further clarification on its implications for the forces involved. There is an acknowledgment of the need for a more formal analytical approach to the problem.

kiuhnm
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The first chapter in Goldstein's Classical Mechanics ends with 3 examples about how to apply Lagrange's eqs. to simple problems. The second example is about the Atwood's machine. The book says that the tension of the rope can be ignored, but I don't understand why. The two masses can move vertically and the constraining forces (one on each mass) have the same vertical direction so shouldn't they do virtual work?
 
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The constraint is holonomic: forces do work, but the sum of the work is zero by virtue of the constraint equation.
 
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In the case of the Atwood's machine the motion is one-dimensional and you have only one coordinate, which by the way, is your generalized coordinate.

The only external force is gravity, which is conservative. There follows the calculations.
 
BvU said:
The constraint is holonomic: forces do work, but the sum of the work is zero by virtue of the constraint equation.

OK, thanks. I was confused by the remark "This trivial problem emphasizes that the forces of constraint--here the tension in the rope--appear nowhere in the Lagrangian formulation."
Let's say I want to be extremely formal. How would I proceed? The constraint is ##x_1+x_2=l##, where ##x_i## is the position of the ##i##-th mass. How do I deduce from that, analytically, that the sum of the constraint forces is ##0##?

edit: On second thought, I think the pulley is there just to physically justify the constraint. The pulley is massless and frictionless so the text of the problem is basically saying to ignore it and identify it with the constraint.
 
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