Waves, Energy, Blackbodies and Modes

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Quelsita
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Energy Modes Waves
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of "modes" in the context of blackbody radiation and electromagnetic fields within a cavity. Participants explore the relationship between modes, frequencies, and degrees of freedom, as well as the implications of these concepts for energy distribution in radiation fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a mode is an eigenstate of the radiation field within a cavity, representing stable configurations of the electromagnetic field.
  • It is suggested that modes can vary with frequency and have different spatial profiles, with each mode acting as a degree of freedom of the electromagnetic field.
  • One participant questions the relationship between eigenstates and the paths of photons, suggesting that modes describe possible configurations and thus relate to degrees of freedom.
  • There is a discussion about the energy associated with modes, particularly how energy increases with frequency and the implications for thermal equilibrium in radiation fields.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of transverse and longitudinal modes, emphasizing their characteristics as standing wave patterns.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the concept of mode density at thermal equilibrium and its relationship to energy dependence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definition of modes as eigenstates within a cavity but express differing views on the implications of this definition, particularly regarding energy and degrees of freedom. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views on the relationship between these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the need to consider thermal equilibrium and the energy dependence of modes, indicating that there are missing pieces in the discussion regarding these aspects.

Quelsita
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
I am going over some notes and am trying to fit some pieces together. For some reason I keep confusing myself as to what exactly a "mode" is. Is a mode a wave? or a frequency?

Also, how does a mode relate to the degrees of freedom for a particle in a system?


Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
In the context of blackbody (cavity) radiation, a mode is an eigenstate of the radiation field within the cavity. That is, it's a configuration of the electromagnetic field that can exist stably within the cavity: for simple cavitygeometries, analytic expressions for the modes can be written down fairly easily (sines and cosines, bessel functions, hermite polynomials ,etc). Modes will vary with frequency, and can also have different spatial profiles.

Each mode can also be considered a degree of freedom of the electromagnetic field- an arbitrary field can be decomposed into a mode distribution.

Does that help?
 
Andy Resnick said:
a mode is an eigenstate of the radiation field within the cavity. That is, it's a configuration of the electromagnetic field that can exist stably within the cavity.
That makes sense but "eigenstate" threw me off a bit. So, if an eigenvalue is a scalar, then that just means an eigenstate for, say a photon, would be every possible path it can take?
This is why a mode is a degree of freedom, because it describes the possible configurations?

Andy Resnick said:
Modes will vary with frequency, and can also have different spatial profiles.
So, if you consider a blackbody radiating energy like a standing wave, it has a certain amount of modes possible which increase with frequency.
I know that modes have equal energy and as frequency increases, the energy becomes infinitely large but how does a degree of freedom have energy?

Am I making sense, or just confusing things further?
 
Forget about the photon picture for now- we are discussing the field *within* a cavity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_mode (for example pictures.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_mode (for wavelength/frequency info)

Each of the transverse modes are the same wavelength and frequency. If you like, they are standing wave patterns- just like the longitudinal modes are standing wave patterns. For a cubic cavity, the mode structure is very simple- sines and cosines in all three dimensions, with an additional factor of 2 for polarizations.

The missing piece (so far) from this discussion is thermal equilibrium- what is the mode density for a radiation field at thermal equilibrium? As you point out, with increasing frequency there is increasing energy, so we have to take into account the energy dependence of the modes.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/quantum/rayj.html#c2
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/mod6.html
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
1K