What Defines an Ideal Gas and How Does It Differ from Real Gases?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition of an ideal gas and its differences from real gases, focusing on the assumptions underlying the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) and the conditions under which gases behave ideally. Participants explore the implications of temperature, volume, pressure, and molecular interactions in the context of the kinetic molecular theory.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about what constitutes "big" temperature and volume for gases, noting that these terms are relative and depend on the specific gas in question.
  • One participant mentions that the ideal gas law implies that at absolute zero (T=0), the gas has no volume or pressure, raising questions about the physical meaning of this assumption.
  • Another participant emphasizes that ideal gases are approximations that simplify calculations, assuming no molecular size or interactions between gas molecules.
  • It is noted that gases behave more ideally at large volumes or low pressures, while deviations occur at small volumes and high pressures due to the significance of molecular size and interactions.
  • Some participants suggest that ideal gases are characterized by high volume, high moles, and high temperatures, but low pressures, although this is not universally agreed upon.
  • One participant references the Van der Waals equation as a model that accounts for molecular forces and volume, contrasting it with the ideal gas law.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the basic assumptions of the ideal gas law but express differing views on the implications of these assumptions and the conditions under which gases behave ideally. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific definitions of "big" and the conditions that lead to ideal behavior.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of temperature and volume, as well as the unresolved nature of how molecular interactions affect gas behavior under different conditions.

sportsstar469
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what are the differences? my professor said something like an ideal gas has a big temperature, and a big volume. and ithink he says it follows the kinetic molecular theory. but i also know that different gases react at different temps and volumes so big is relative. how do i know what is big for which gas?

also he said its ideal if the gas matches what the ideal gas equation is saying (PV=nRT)
i don't understand what he means by that. i know how to manipulate the equation but i don't know what he means by that. I am pretty sure on thursdays quiz, I am going to have to explain this.

its probably a simple concept, but I am just stressed anyway, i don't want to lose my in this class, by failing the final
 
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An ideal gas is an approximation of the real world to make the maths simpler.
If you look at PV=nRT is says that at T=0 the gas has no volume and no pressure, so where have the atoms gone? Thats because we assume the 'ideal' gas molecules have no size.
We also assume there is no interaction between molecules of the gas - so they don't bounce off each other or attract each other.

At large volumes or low pressures gases become more ideal. The size of the molecules becomes negligble compared to the container.
At very small volumes and very high pressures - imagine a lot of gas compressed into a very tiny space - you can't ignore the size of the molecules and it isn't ideal
 
mgb_phys said:
An ideal gas is an approximation of the real world to make the maths simpler.
If you look at PV=nRT is says that at T=0 the gas has no volume and no pressure, so where have the atoms gone? Thats because we assume the 'ideal' gas molecules have no size.
We also assume there is no interaction between molecules of the gas - so they don't bounce off each other or attract each other.

At large volumes or low pressures gases become more ideal. The size of the molecules becomes negligble compared to the container.
At very small volumes and very high pressures - imagine a lot of gas compressed into a very tiny space - you can't ignore the size of the molecules and it isn't ideal

im assuming since volume is directly related to moles, and temperature, that ideal gases have high volume, high moles, and high temps, but low pressures?
 
The ideal gas law is based on seveal assumptions. First, the gas is made up of many, many molecules that move randomly. This is necessary in order for the molecules to collide, exchange energy, and reach equilibrium. The model also assumes that the actual volume of the particles themselves is very small compared to the total volume the system takes up. This is why it says that there is no volume at T=0, since at that temperature the volume would just be that of the atoms (no free space between). Finally, the law assumes no forces are acting on the particles except for when they collide. These assumptions work out pretty well for a lot of gases and the law has been known for centuries and is found by simple kinetic theory using these assumptions. You can also see the Van der Waals gas law which accounts for atomic forces and volume.
 
sportsstar469 said:
im assuming since volume is directly related to moles, and temperature, that ideal gases have high volume, high moles, and high temps, but low pressures?

Ideal gas laws assume there are no forces between the molecules and only collide with the walls of the container not with each other. At high pressure, as you squeeze more molecules into a space, the number of collisions between molecules increases
 

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