What Does Volume V Represent in Thermodynamics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of volume V in thermodynamics, particularly in the context of systems undergoing phase changes. Participants explore different definitions and implications of volume in relation to particle distribution, system boundaries, and phase diagrams.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether volume V refers to the smallest region containing all particles and whether it needs to be connected.
  • Another participant suggests that volume is typically fixed, like the interior of a box, but acknowledges that it can change, such as when the box expands.
  • A participant raises a scenario involving a phase shift from gas to liquid at the wall of a container, proposing the need for a semiopen system and questioning how to define the volume for analysis.
  • Another participant notes that common phase diagrams usually involve pressure and temperature, implying that volume changes may be negligible in certain contexts.
  • A later reply elaborates on the non-uniformity of temperature and water vapor partial pressure within the container, emphasizing the significance of boundary layers in understanding phase changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definition and implications of volume V, with no consensus reached on its interpretation or the conditions under which it applies.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of volume in different thermodynamic contexts, the implications of system boundaries, and the effects of phase changes on volume considerations.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and related fields, particularly those exploring phase transitions and system definitions.

berra
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I am confused over what the volume V stands for in thermodynamics.
Is it the smallest possible region of space containing all particles being studied? If so does it have to be connected?
Is it the volume enclosed by the surroundings of the system? If so, i thought the system was supposed to be fixed over time, but then why does one define quantities such as dV?
I hope you understand my confusion and can help me understand.
 
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Usually, it is assumed that the fluid is constrained to be in some fixed volume - the interior of a box, for example. That volume can change (the box can expand for example).
If you have two disconnected regions, they cannot exchange particles and pressure, so it is better to treat them as two different volumes V1, V2.
 
I want to explore the phase shift from gas to liquid along the wall of a container (its cold outside it). I guess I would have to have a semiopen system then, since the liquid only arises on the wall. But then what is the volume of the system so I can look at the phase diagram and see if it has a phase change? (I was thinking of getting T and p from Navier Stokes)
 
You can consider a large chunk of gas, where the volume change due to condensation is negligible.
Common phase diagrams are p and T only.
 
berra said:
I want to explore the phase shift from gas to liquid along the wall of a container (its cold outside it). I guess I would have to have a semiopen system then, since the liquid only arises on the wall. But then what is the volume of the system so I can look at the phase diagram and see if it has a phase change? (I was thinking of getting T and p from Navier Stokes)

In the system you are considering, the temperature and water vapor partial pressure are not uniform within the container. Typically, there will be a thin boundary layer region near the wall in which the temperature varies rapidly from the bulk value for the chamber to the colder value at the wall, and in which the water vapor partial pressure varies rapidly from the bulk value for the chamber to the lower partial pressure value at the wall. Immediately at the wall, the water partial pressure is at the equilibrium value with the wall temperature. The rate of heat transfer from the bulk of the chamber to the wall depends on the thickness of the thermal boundary layer and temperature difference across the boundary layer, and the rate of water vapor mass transfer to the wall depends on the thickness of the concentration boundary layer and the vapor pressure difference across the boundary layer.
 

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