What happened to fuel-cell technology?

[mheslep]

(but still without an exploding tank).

No explosion based on what? Sure explosions are over dramatized in movies but that does not mean gasoline vapors in or escaping from a tank can not explode.

 

[mfb]

There is a huge difference between a small amount of fuel leaking somewhere and burning or exploding, and a full tank of gasoline exploding.

Anyway... you are claiming that something is possible (exploding cars without additional explosives or extremely special circumstances), please find a reference for that.

 

[russ_watters]

http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-statistics/the-us-fire-problem/highway-vehicle-fires in the US. Used to be half a million decades ago.

Without knowing how many accidents there are a year, I cat say if that is rare or not, but it is more than I expected. Still, as pointed out, that wasn't the claim you should be sourcing.

Mythbusters did an episode on this. Their results indicate explosions are near impossible.

 

[mheslep]

There is a huge difference between a small amount of fuel leaking somewhere and burning or exploding, and a full tank of gasoline exploding.

I don't assert that 100% of a gasoline tank would explode. Heck it is hard enough to achieve perfect combustion in a cylinder designed for combustion. I don't think any flammable will completely explode unless it is somehow premixed with oxygen, and that goes for H2 as well. What I do expect is that whatever small amount gasoline vapor exists above the liquid fuel will ignite and burn rapidly given an opportunity, leading likely to more spillage of liquid fuel which will also burn if more slowly. Does that assumption require a source?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgOxWPGsJNY

A few years ago somebody did a comparison of an H2 versus a gasoline based car fire, short description here:
http://www.hydrogenandfuelcellsafety.info/resources/Swain-H2-Car-Video-Description.pdf
Photos in the appendix.

 

[mfb]

Does that assumption require a source?

It does:

Mythbusters did an episode on this. Their results indicate explosions are near impossible.

The results indicate even more: An open tank can continue to burn, but the fire does not get larger.

 

[mheslep]

It does:

The results indicate even more: An open tank can continue to burn, but the fire does not get larger.

All I'm claiming is that fire damage can occur on the order of the video I provided above, how 'explosive' that may be I have no idea, and doesn't matter much with respect to the assertion that started this discussion, "The plastic tank is safer than hydrogen under pressure. It won't explode (as we are not in a movie). A burning car is bad, but an exploding car is worse." As far as I can tell that statement is dogma.

 

[mfb]

All I'm claiming is that fire damage can occur on the order of the video I provided above, how 'explosive' that may be I have no idea, and doesn't matter much with respect to the assertion that started this discussion, "The plastic tank is safer than hydrogen under pressure. It won't explode (as we are not in a movie). A burning car is bad, but an exploding car is worse." As far as I can tell that statement is dogma.

That's a burning car, it is not an explosion.

Anyway, this discussion gets pointless.

 

[Astronuc]

I witnessed a fire in a pickup truck near my home. The first started small, then grew. At some point, the fuel must have ruptured because there was a poof (not a bang) and a big fire ball, followed by a huge fire. It seemed like a low grade explosion, but the truck itself did not explode or even move.

Fires and explosions are concerns for liquid fuel srorage/transport systems, and designers try to design storage tanks such that they do not explode. Vents and pressure relief valves are one way to mitigate vessel rupture or explosion. For explosive vapors, care must be taken to combust them or recycle them to avoid uncontrolled combutsion.

 

[OmCheeto]

Does anyone know where I can purchase a 1kw hydrogen fuel cell at the DOE price of $47/kw?

The only one I've found online costs $5685!

I have more experiments to do, in the not too distant future.

 

[etudiant]

Does anyone know where I can purchase a 1kw hydrogen fuel cell at the DOE price of $47/kw?

The only one I've found online costs $5685!

I have more experiments to do, in the not too distant future.

The DOE did qualify that to be $47/kW for an 80kW cell in volume production of 500,000 units/yr.
So you may be looking for some extended period.

I'll take several, please, when you find them.

 

[OmCheeto]

The DOE did qualify that to be $47/kW for an 80kW cell in volume production of 500,000 units/yr.
So you may be looking for some extended period.

I'll take several, please, when you find them.

yes. I saw the 500,000 units/yr figure. (economies of scale, blah, blah...)

hmmm...

I just checked out "HowStuffWorks" where someone described how to build one.
The link that allows you to buy platinum coated nickel: "You can order one online for 15 bucks." is dead.

I say conspiracy!

Though I see Platinum is in the same column of the periodic elements as Nickel.

I will never understand chemistry, nor Earthling economics:

Nickel:[/PLAIN] $0.40/ounce
Platinum: $1453.00/ounce

 

[mfb]

Nickel 150 ppm on earth, platinum 0.005 ppm. Heavy elements are rare, especially compared to elements up to iron.

 

[enosis_]

Folks far removed from the energy industry generally don't grasp the scale.

The world uses around a cubic mile of oil per year.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3084

From http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/fossil-fuels/joules-btus-quadslets-call-the-whole-thing-off


,, "here" referring to this graphic from 'theoildrum'

So start today building a hundred windmills every day.
At end of fifty years, if they last that long, you'd have built enough (about 1.6 million) that you could shut off the oil spigot. Well for today's usage anyway (actually 2006's).
But the first half million you built will be getting might rickety by then...
And that's a technology problem not a political one.

But to the subject of the thread -
Hydrogen is awful stuff to handle. I would not ride in the same car with a bottle of 3000 psi hydrogen .
I do like the fuel cell idea when coupled with H2 production by reducing water with aluminum.
http://www.alumifuelinternational.com/company.html



old jim

Is this oil usage estimate strictly for fuel - or all uses?

 

[mheslep]

Is this oil usage estimate strictly for fuel - or all uses?

Does it matter? The non-fuel uses, chemical feed stocks and the like, are a relatively small fraction of the total.