What happens to the gravitational energy of a cooling brown dwarf galaxy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of brown dwarf galaxies, their thermal properties, and the implications of cooling on their gravitational energy. Participants explore the relationship between heat loss and gravitational binding energy, questioning the existence and characteristics of brown dwarf galaxies compared to known astronomical objects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that brown dwarf galaxies are the coldest systems in the universe and posits that as they lose heat energy, they must also lose gravitational energy, potentially leading to their disintegration by more massive galaxies.
  • Another participant challenges the idea of brown dwarf galaxies being the coldest, arguing that if they were indeed the coldest, they would gain heat energy from interactions, not lose it. They also express uncertainty about the term "brown dwarf galaxies" and clarify that brown dwarfs are individual objects, not entire galaxies.
  • A later reply indicates that as a brown dwarf radiates heat energy, its mass decreases, but its gravitational binding energy increases, making it harder to tear apart. This participant emphasizes that the gravitational energy in such systems is negative and that losing heat energy leads to a tighter gravitational binding.
  • Another participant, identifying as an astrophysicist, states they have not encountered the term "brown dwarf galaxies" before, reinforcing the confusion surrounding the terminology.
  • One participant questions the logic behind the idea that a cooling brown dwarf would lose gravitational potential energy, comparing it to the cooling process of white dwarfs transitioning to black dwarfs, and expresses skepticism about the definitions being used in the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the existence and properties of brown dwarf galaxies, with some questioning the terminology and others asserting their characteristics. The relationship between cooling and gravitational energy remains contested, with differing interpretations of how these processes interact.

Contextual Notes

There is a lack of consensus on the definition of "brown dwarf galaxies," and participants highlight the need for clearer definitions and references. The discussion also reflects uncertainty about the implications of cooling on gravitational binding energy.

wolram
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Brown dwarf galaxies are, i think the coldest systems in the universe, If they continue to loose heat energy they must loose gravitational energy as well, eventually these galaxies will be ripped apart by the tidal effects of more massive galaxies.
So if this is correct what happened to the gravitational energy that held the system together?
 
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wolram said:
Brown dwarf galaxies are, i think the coldest systems in the universe, If they continue to loose heat energy

If they really are "the coldest", then they won't be losing heat energy; they will be gaining it (because something that's colder than anything else in the universe can only get warmer, not colder, as it interacts with other things).

That said, I don't think these objects (do you have a reference for "brown dwarf galaxies"? not sure what they are supposed to be, I know what "brown dwarfs" are as single objects but I'm not aware of whole galaxies composed of them) are colder than the CMBR, which is at 2.7 degrees above absolute zero. So they would, in fact, continue to radiate heat energy, because they aren't really the "coldest" things in the universe.

wolram said:
they must loose gravitational energy as well

The dwarf will "lose energy" in one sense, yes; but not in another sense. Suppose there is a brown dwarf all alone in empty space, far from all other objects. You are somewhere far enough away from it that its gravity doesn't affect your motion, but you can watch it slowly radiate heat energy.

As the radiated energy passes you on its way outward, the mass that you measure for the brown dwarf will decrease, yes; in that sense it does "lose energy". However, as this happens, the brown dwarf becomes *more* tightly bound, gravitationally--i.e., it becomes *harder* to tear it apart (in the sense that it would take more energy to do so). So in that sense, it is not "losing gravitational energy"--its binding energy (the energy it would take to disassemble it) is increasing, not decreasing.

wolram said:
what happened to the gravitational energy that held the system together?

As the above shows, the "gravitational energy" you are referring to is *negative*. The system gets more tightly bound as it loses energy. In order for the system to be torn apart, sufficient energy has to be *added* to it; as the system loses heat energy and becomes more tightly bound, the amount of energy it takes to do this *increases*. So the accounting always balances.
 
As an astrophysicist, I must say, I have never heard the term "brown dwarf galaxies"...only brown dwarfs...o.o
 
wolram said:
Brown dwarf galaxies are, i think the coldest systems in the universe, If they continue to loose heat energy they must loose gravitational energy as well, eventually these galaxies will be ripped apart by the tidal effects of more massive galaxies.
So if this is correct what happened to the gravitational energy that held the system together?
As gravitational systems lose heat, they collapse inward.
 
I am curious, why would you think a brown dwarf loses gravitational potential by cooling? How would that differ from white dwarfs that ultimately cool to become black dwarfs - and in a time frame which is probably shorter than that of a brown dwarf temperature dropping below the CMB. I agree with Matterwave, the notion of a brown dwarf galaxy is not a term with which I am familiar. No offense, but, it appears you are connecting dots that lack definition.
 

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