What has happened to gender separation?

[wolram]

I have noticed that women don't seem to make them self's up so much as 20yrs ago, and they wear things like raggety jeans, i know i am going to get killed for this but i am being honest, some girls look like boys and some boys look like girls, what has happened to gender separation?

mod note: edited title

 

[nuuskur]

Just some girls. Not a significant decline in stock for me to worry.

 

[russ_watters]

The question in the title doesn't appear to me to match the question in the post.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

Maybe they have more important things on their minds than your subjective notion of "pretty"?

 

[StatGuy2000]

wolram, I don't know how things are in England (your profile states that you live from Warwickshire, UK) , but at least here in Toronto, I have not especially noticed any such trend among younger women, except among a relatively small subgroup.

And perhaps as Ben Niehoff suggested, the younger women you've encountered may have other priorities apart from looking "pretty".

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

what has happened to gender separation?

Youth always rebel against the previous generation. Old customs of conformity and gender roles are ripe for breaking.

 

[Borek]

Once you remove the clothes, the differences are the same you remember.

Just most hair is gone.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I have noticed that women don't seem to make them self's up so much as 20yrs ago, and they wear things like raggety jeans, i know i am going to get killed for this but i am being honest, some girls look like boys and some boys look like girls, what has happened to gender separation?

Styles constantly cycle. Raggedy jeans have been in and out a few times in my lifetime, and the hippie days of the 60's were anti-make-up days for women. And speaking of hippie days, there were constant complaints that the long hair on men got them mistaken for women. There always seems to be some odd trend that's disturbing. The goth movement was big around here, and it had a definite unhealthy glow about it. But it's all but gone now. Fashion seems to be a perfect embodiment of "This, too, shall pass."

 

[S.G. Janssens]

Old customs of conformity and gender roles are ripe for breaking.

I like men to look and act like men and women to look and act like women. Of course, at the end it's up to the individual alone, but every now and then when I see a woman that looks and behaves like a truck driver, I think: "What a pity!".

 

[Psinter]

Once you remove the clothes, the differences are the same you remember.

This...

I'm having trouble assimilating this statement.

 

[wolram]

I like men to look and act like men and women to look and act like women. Of course, at the end it's up to the individual alone, but every now and then when I see a woman that looks and behaves like a truck driver, I think: "What a pity!".

It is like this in my area, i would not say they looked like truck drivers but more like down and outs, it seems like the days are gone when one could say one out of twenty women, look nicely dressed and had naturally looking hair instead of having purple or orange hair and rings in their noses

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

truck driver, I think: "What a pity!".

What is wrong with being a truck driver?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

It is like this in my area, i would not say they looked like truck drivers but more like down and outs, it seems like the days are gone when one could say one out of twenty women, look nicely dressed and had naturally looking hair instead of having purple or orange hair and rings in their noses

These are just your personal definitions for beauty. Some think orange hair and a nose ring is beautiful. In any case, how about you get to know them instead of objectifying them? You may find once you get to know them you don't care what color their hair is. We're all dead in a 100 years, what difference does it make?

 

[S.G. Janssens]

What is wrong with being a truck driver?

Nothing, especially not on long American highways. I just like it so much when women look... feminine, and (at least in Europe) most truck drivers don't look very feminine to me.

We're all dead in a 100 years, what difference does it make?

That's just pure speculation.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Nothing, especially not on long American highways. I just like it so much when women look... feminine, and (at least in Europe) most truck drivers don't look very feminine to me.

Yes and there are still plenty of feminine females. The men who like masculine females need some to choose from too you know

 

[WWGD]

I think it may have to see with the fact that according to the radical women's movement
the behavioral differences between men and women are all socially determined, which is
false if you notice the biological/physiological differences and the premise that form follows function.
Before anyone jumps on me, I mean I believe the two are different, neither is better nor worse.

 

[wolram]

These are just your personal definitions for beauty. Some think orange hair and a nose ring is beautiful. In any case, how about you get to know them instead of objectifying them? You may find once you get to know them you don't care what color their hair is. We're all dead in a 100 years, what difference does it make?

Get to know them they may eat me and as for only living 100 years i think i may surpass that

 

[zoobyshoe]

These are just your personal definitions for beauty. Some think orange hair and a nose ring is beautiful.

I don't think those kinds of alterations are about beauty at all, Greg. They are more social statements than anything else, and are often chosen especially because they are esthetically jarring. They are rebellious, challenging, counter-culture, non-conformist, all that stuff.

In any case, how about you get to know them instead of objectifying them? You may find once you get to know them you don't care what color their hair is.

People with orange hair want to you care about what color their hair is. They want an old foggey like Wolram to be put off and confused. There's always been a shock faction in every generation; people who do inexplicable things simply because they're inexplicable, off-putting.

 

[wolram]

I don't think those kinds of alterations are about beauty at all, Greg. They are more social statements than anything else, and are often chosen especially because they are esthetically jarring. They are rebellious, challenging, counter-culture, non-conformist, all that stuff.

People with orange hair want to you care about what color their hair is. They want an old foggey like Wolram to be put off and confused. There's always been a shock faction in every generation; people who do inexplicable things simply because they're inexplicable, off-putting.

Old foggey? gad it is pistols at dawn for you, and i will have you know if i dressed like some i would be taken to the salvation army for soup and tea.

 

[Lisa!]

A recent study conducted at Brunel University London has revealed that the opposite sex’s attraction to masculine men and feminine women is a modern occurrence in highly developed cultures and what men and women really desire is facial neutrality.¹

PS: 1. Don't know if this source is trustworthy or not!
2.Sorry but the title is not as eye-catching as the previous 1!

 

[S.G. Janssens]

A recent study conducted at Brunel University London has revealed that the opposite sex’s attraction to masculine men and feminine women is a modern occurrence in highly developed cultures and what men and women really desire is facial neutrality.1

Thank you so much! I'm modern and highly developed

 

[OmCheeto]

Youth always rebel against the previous generation. Old customs of conformity and gender roles are ripe for breaking.

Thank god.
Yesterday, I discovered that the year I was born, only 4% of Americans were in favor mixed race marriages.
And it wouldn't be until I was 8 years old that laws against mixed race marriages would be ruled unconstitutional.
My response to this new found knowledge was; "People in the older days were stupid".

...what has happened to gender separation?

IMHO, to paraphrase Greg; "It's an old custom of conformity, and hopefully, on it's way out". ps. My above comments should not be construed, in any way, as approving of Greg in green hair. It was a good look for Borek, but not for Greg, IMHO.

 

[Psinter]

Thank god.
Yesterday, I discovered that the year I was born, only 4% of Americans were in favor mixed race marriages.
And it wouldn't be until I was 8 years old that laws against mixed race marriages would be ruled unconstitutional.
My response to this new found knowledge was; "People in the older days were stupid".
IMHO, to paraphrase Greg; "It's an old custom of conformity, and hopefully, on it's way out".ps. My above comments should not be construed, in any way, as approving of Greg in green hair. It was a good look for Borek, but not for Greg, IMHO.

View attachment 94772​

We were all young once: EDIT: Green hair looks good on everyone.

 

[einswine]

... They are rebellious, challenging, counter-culture, non-conformist, all that stuff. ...

Ah! The poor babies haven't drunk the correct flavor of Cool-Aid yet. But they will. Then they will fall inline, stop questioning authority, develop a taste for a more mainstream stream of mindless commercially driven pop culture and walk in step with all the rest of the lemmings. That will make them very attractive to real men I'm sure.

Just my two cents.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ah! The poor babies haven't drunk the correct flavor of Cool-Aid yet. But they will. Then they will fall inline, stop questioning authority, develop a taste for a more mainstream stream of mindless commercially driven pop culture and walk in step with all the rest of the lemmings. That will make them very attractive to real men I'm sure.

Just my two cents.

For some reason you took me as condemning or criticizing them, when my only point was that that kind of look is not about beauty.

 

[WWGD]

Ah! The poor babies haven't drunk the correct flavor of Cool-Aid yet. But they will. Then they will fall inline, stop questioning authority, develop a taste for a more mainstream stream of mindless commercially driven pop culture and walk in step with all the rest of the lemmings. That will make them very attractive to real men I'm sure.

Just my two cents.

Specially so in a difficult economy. In the humming post-war economy of the 60's, people could afford to turn on, tune in, drop out and then join the workforce: a worker's economy, in contrast to today's employer's economy, where those looking for work must play it safe with exceptions for those who can get "alternative" jobs or are independently wealthy. I do wonder about the lives of people I see walking around on workdays, wearing t-shirts that read f*** everyone. Do these people have a job? What job would allow them to even be seen wearing such a t-shirt without getting them fired?

 

[e.bar.goum]

I have noticed that women don't seem to make them self's up so much as 20yrs ago, and they wear things like raggety jeans, i know i am going to get killed for this but i am being honest, some girls look like boys and some boys look like girls, what has happened to gender separation?

Social progress has happened. Social progress that means that people of any gender are free not only to dress in such a way that best expresses themselves. People of all genders can wear dresses, or suits, or jeans and chunky boots. Or not spend hundreds of dollars and hours and hours on makeup. Or, if they like, they can do that. Doesn't that freedom sound pretty great? Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't social repercussions for doing so, enforced by people with outdated, troglodyte views as the ones expressed in this thread, but we're getting there.

This is the same social change that means women can not only look like truck drivers, but can actually be truck drivers. Or you know physicists! *gasp* (And people wonder why there Physics Forums is a but more dude-ish than physics is in general. Could it be because of threads such as these?)

This might come as a surprise to you, but women don't exist for you to ogle.

 

[WWGD]

Social progress has happened. Social progress that means that people of any gender are free not only to dress in such a way that best expresses themselves. People of all genders can wear dresses, or suits, or jeans and chunky boots. Or not spend hundreds of dollars and hours and hours on makeup. Or, if they like, they can do that. Doesn't that freedom sound pretty great? Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't social repercussions for doing so, enforced by people with outdated, troglodyte views as the ones expressed in this thread, but we're getting there.

This is the same social change that means women can not only look like truck drivers, but can actually be truck drivers. Or you know physicists! *gasp* (And people wonder why there Physics Forums is a but more dude-ish than physics is in general. Could it be because of threads such as these?)

This might come as a surprise to you, but women don't exist for you to ogle.

I don't see what you are upset about, people expressed their personal views, without showing any attempt to force them on anyone else. I don't see why anyone would feel offended by this.

 

[e.bar.goum]

I don't see what you are upset about, people expressed their personal views, without showing any attempt to force them on anyone else. I don't see why anyone would feel offended by this.

Who says I'm upset?

 

[WWGD]

Who says I'm upset?

Your sarcasm, accusations?

 

[e.bar.goum]

Your sarcasm, accusations?

Hey, just expressing my personal views without showing any attempt to force them on anyone else.

 

[WWGD]

Hey, just expressing my personal views without showing any attempt to force them on anyone else.

Yes, while referring to those who disagree with you as troglodytes, sure sign of neutral stance. Hey, in the feminist playbook, the best I can aim for is being " one of the good ones".

 

[e.bar.goum]

Yes, while referring to those who disagree with you as troglodytes, sure sign of neutral stance.

It's just such a nice word. Also, I never said my stance was neutral, just like the other "personal views" on this thread are not neutral.

 

[WWGD]

<Snip>

This is the same social change that means women can not only look like truck drivers, but can actually be truck drivers. Or you know physicists! *gasp* (And people wonder why there Physics Forums is a but more dude-ish than physics is in general. Could it be because of threads such as these?)

This might come as a surprise to you, but women don't exist for you to ogle.

This might come to you as a surprise, but in many states today, a man must support a child, even after having DNA proof that the child is not his. Want to star airing grievances? Let's have them from both sides.

 

[e.bar.goum]

This might come to you as a surprise, but in many states today, a man must support a child, even after having DNA proof that the child is not his. Want to star airing grievances? Let's have them from both sides.

I'm sorry, that seems a bit out of left field to what the topic of this thread is about, which is how men and women are now more free to express their gender identities in ways that were previously not permitted by society. I suspect going down that route would be rather off-topic.

 

[einswine]

For some reason you took me as condemning or criticizing them, when my only point was that that kind of look is not about beauty.

I see, you have my sincere apologies.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Personally, I don't observe that there's been any general movement toward androgyny. It sounds to me like Wolram just started to notice some kind of generally scruffy look that is in fashion where he lives at the moment. There are some kids who come through here who are like that, but they are a fringe movement. This girl I talked to said they're called "crusties" because they never wash their clothes. It's not about gender-bending at all. It's a kind of hobo-ism, or embrace of disenfranchisement. They are, in fact, hobos in that they are homeless and nomadic, but they're all young, and stick together in groups as they move around. They beg, or play guitar with a hat out for tips, and find the local soup kitchens. "Crusties" are pretty noticeable, but I wouldn't doubt there are other very scruffy looking youth sub-cultures with a kind of punk/homeless style of dress in different places.

 

[Sophia]

In my experience, there are women who enjoy buying new clothes and can spend a small fortune on them. It makes them feel good.
Than there are woman, as far as I can say for my rough estimation in my area, who dress nicely only because it is informally required at their job. They don't enjoy dressing officially nor wearing makeup, but they do it to fit in and avoid gossip by other women. In my opinion, this is the majority in my area.
Than there are lucky ones who work in jobs not requiring any special clothes. Jeans and sweatshirt is enough. This is my category and I really enjoy it! It's comfortable, simple and saves tons of time and money. I only wear minimal eyeshadow and mascara, sometimes nail polish.
Have men ever thought how uncomfortable feminine clothes are? What about spending a few days in high heels?
In my opinion, being feminine is not about wearing a whole palette on your face nor wearing dress that could be mistaken for a t-shirt because it's so short.
Being feminine is being clean, with decent matching colours, maybe wearing a nice perfume that's not too strong. And most of all, behaving kindly, showing one's intelligence and good manners. This does NOT mean being submissive! Of course I strongly believe that a woman must be strong and courageous if it is necessary.

 

[PWiz]

some girls look like boys and some boys look like girls, what has happened to gender separation?

Well, I have long hair, and I trim regularly because I don't like having facial hair. Some people think I look feminine, but I don't see what the issue is. What exactly makes someone 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Is it fair to label those who don't conform to these "standards" as eccentric? I would rather have people judge me on the basis of my personality rather than my appearance, because the latter is a personal choice whereas the former is natural. This whole thing kinda sounds like the elementary school idea of "boys like red and girls like pink. You're a girl for liking purple [because that is closer to pink]!"

 

[Bandersnatch]

boys like red and girls like pink

Ugh. Kids these days and their ambiguous modern gender stereotypes. In my day and age boys couldn't even tell the difference between those colours!

 

[Sophia]

Boys like red? That's girls colour! Boys like blue! Boys liking red- Sign of end of the world ...
:-D

 

[WWGD]

In my experience, there are women who enjoy buying new clothes and can spend a small fortune on them. It makes them feel good.
Than there are woman, as far as I can say for my rough estimation in my area, who dress nicely only because it is informally required at their job. They don't enjoy dressing officially nor wearing makeup, but they do it to fit in and avoid gossip by other women. In my opinion, this is the majority in my area.
Than there are lucky ones who work in jobs not requiring any special clothes. Jeans and sweatshirt is enough. This is my category and I really enjoy it! It's comfortable, simple and saves tons of time and money. I only wear minimal eyeshadow and mascara, sometimes nail polish.
Have men ever thought how uncomfortable feminine clothes are? What about spending a few days in high heels?
In my opinion, being feminine is not about wearing a whole palette on your face nor wearing dress that could be mistaken for a t-shirt because it's so short.
Being feminine is being clean, with decent matching colours, maybe wearing a nice perfume that's not too strong. And most of all, behaving kindly, showing one's intelligence and good manners. This does NOT mean being submissive! Of course I strongly believe that a woman must be strong and courageous if it is necessary.

Agree, but consider the hassle and pain of wearing a suit and tie and formal shoes. Ever heard of anyone(mostly men) say:" I am uncomfortable in these clothes, let me put on a suit and tie".

 

[zoobyshoe]

I would rather have people judge me on the basis of my personality rather than my appearance, because the latter is a personal choice whereas the former is natural.

The thing is, people can control their appearance to a large extent, so appearance is an extension of personality. To the extent anyone notices choices you've made about your appearance, they are observing your personality.

 

[PWiz]

The thing is, people can control their appearance to a large extent

This is exactly my point - appearances can be manipulated at will, and the result does not always reflect the personality of a person. You cannot determine the intent behind an appearance just by looking at it. Plus, different people will draw different conclusions on the things they see, so there is no fixed scale to compare this on. (For example, some teenage male may keep his hair long to just look "cool" and gain some popularity/peer acceptance, while another might do it simply because it feels more natural to him.) Any attempt to objectively analyze an inherently subjective concept is doomed to fail.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is exactly my point - appearances can be manipulated at will, and the result does not always reflect the personality of a person. You cannot determine the intent behind an appearance just by looking at it. Plus, different people will draw different conclusions on the things they see, so there is no fixed scale to compare this on. (For example, some teenage male may keep his hair long to just look "cool" and gain some popularity/peer acceptance, while another might do it simply because it feels more natural to him.) Any attempt to objectively analyze an inherently subjective concept is doomed to fail.

It sounds like maybe you have had the experience of being misread by inept observers, which is actually pretty common: everyone has gotten ridiculous feedback from some people. I'm not claiming everyone is good at understanding how the way someone dresses says something about their personality.

But, if you focus on what you can tell as oppose to what you can't tell, then you can tell a lot, and start building a sort of "differential diagnosis". First off, it's pretty easy to tell who puts effort into their appearance as opposed to who doesn't. If you observe the body language of those who don't, you can start to get an inkling of which ones just have low self esteem, which ones are defiantly sloppy, which ones are mentally ill, which ones are alcoholics, which ones are outright homeless, etc. If you pay attention to people who do take care with their appearance you can start seeing the differences between those who do it from social pressure and those who really get into it. You can start separating the wealthy from those who aren't so wealthy but still spend a lot on their appearance cause they want to. You can see whose dress is primarily business oriented and whose is primarily fashion oriented. You can tell the difference between someone who is dressed up to look respectable and someone who is dressed up to look sexy. I'm not saying you can read people's minds, but all these indicators tell you something about their personalities. And you can, in fact, often tell when a person has dressed themselves to obscure something about their personality, or to try and project an image they don't actually inhabit. There are "tells" for everything, if you pay attention.

 

[alw34]

are often chosen especially because they are esthetically jarring.

Some think orange hair and a nose ring is beautiful.

And some just want attention.

And why not: so many today win 'participation prizes' and many kids know that's fake.

My eight year old nephew said "They didn't keep score. It was dopey." And his team got clobbered!

 

[jack476]

It's quite simple. There is no longer any great social pressure on girls and women to be girly and womanly because traditional gender roles are weakening and fading. And it's just a fact that jeans, t-shirts, and close haircuts are just much easier and more convenient.

That's a separate thing from why some people go way off the deep end with trying to look rebellious. Gods help me, I have a younger sister who's into the whole goth/scene thing. Leggings covered in inverted crosses, t-shirts that say "**** YOU WORSHIP SATAN", handbags and shirts with pentagrams all over (which I kind of like, because she gets absolutely pissed when I tell people she's an aspiring graph theorist), several pairs of jeans that I am rather certain were fished out of a dumpster after being sent through a woodchipper, and the whole half-shaved Skrillex hair thing.

As for "non-conformist" subcultures in general, I'll defer to Dr House:

Dr. Gregory House: Nonconformity - right. I can't remember the last time saw a twenty-something kid with a tattoo of an Asian letter on his wrist. You are one wicked free thinker! You want to be a rebel? Stop being cool. Wear a pocket protector like he does, and get a hair cut like the Asian kids that don't leave the library for twenty hour stretches. They're the ones who don't care what you think.

 

[WWGD]

It's quite simple. There is no longer any great social pressure on girls and women to be girly and womanly because traditional gender roles are weakening and fading. And it's just a fact that jeans, t-shirts, and close haircuts are just much easier and more convenient.

That's a separate thing from why some people go way off the deep end with trying to look rebellious. Gods help me, I have a younger sister who's into the whole goth/scene thing. Leggings covered in inverted crosses, t-shirts that say "**** YOU WORSHIP SATAN", handbags and shirts with pentagrams all over (which I kind of like, because she gets absolutely pissed when I tell people she's an aspiring graph theorist), several pairs of jeans that I am rather certain were fished out of a dumpster after being sent through a woodchipper, and the whole half-shaved Skrillex hair thing.

As for "non-conformist" subcultures in general, I'll defer to Dr House:

Dr. Gregory House: Nonconformity - right. I can't remember the last time saw a twenty-something kid with a tattoo of an Asian letter on his wrist. You are one wicked free thinker! You want to be a rebel? Stop being cool. Wear a pocket protector like he does, and get a hair cut like the Asian kids that don't leave the library for twenty hour stretches. They're the ones who don't care what you think.

Yes, it sort of defeats the purpose when one has to go so far out of one's way to show one does not care what others think.

 

[OCR]

Lol...

Yes, it sort of defeats the purpose when one has to go so far out of one's way to show one does not care what others think.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

I cannot help but wonder what it matters how women dress. If you're not dating what is the concern with how strangers dress themselves? Such a strange and frivolous thing to worry about.