What is the change in entropy of the water in a reversible heat engine?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the change in entropy of water in the context of a reversible heat engine, specifically examining the heat transfer processes involved and the implications for entropy changes. Participants are exploring the thermodynamic principles governing heat engines and the associated calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the calculation of heat transfer and its relation to entropy, questioning the meaning of efficiency in the context of the equations presented. There is also confusion regarding the signs in the equations and the interpretation of heat being added to or taken from the ice.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active with participants raising questions about the definitions and calculations involved in the problem. Some guidance has been offered regarding the relationship between heat transfer and entropy, but there is no explicit consensus on the interpretations or calculations yet.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating through the complexities of thermodynamic equations and the implications of reversibility in heat engines. There is mention of specific values and conditions, such as temperatures and heat capacities, which may influence the calculations but are not fully resolved in the discussion.

Pouyan
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Homework Statement
1 kg of liquid water with a temperature of 373 K is cooled in a reversible heat engine by a very large block of ice with a temperature of 273 K until the water (still liquid) adopts the temperature of 273 K. Determine how much ice is melted in the process.
Relevant Equations
C_w = C_water= 4200 (J/KgK)
dQ_water= 1kg*C_w*dT
C_ice=334000 J/kg
Q_ice= m_ice * C_ice
My attempt:
I though :
ΔQ_w= 1*4200 * (-100) J=-420000J
Q_ice=334000*m_ice = ΔQ_w

But it was totally wrong!
The solution showed :

Because the heat engine is reversible the efficiency η = 1- (T_cold / T)
T_cold is always 273 K while the hot temperature changes from 373 K to 273 K during this loop.
The amount of heat taken from the ice :
Q = -C ∫(1-(1-(T_cold/T)))*dT [from 373 to 273]
Q=358 kJ

Q_ice=334000*mm=Q/Q_ice = 1.07 kg

My question is this part:
Q = -C ∫(1-(1-(T_cold/T)))*dT
What do I see it is Q=-C*∫(1-η)dT
1-But what does 1-η mean?
2-Where does the negative sign come from? (I mean why do we write -C?)
 
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Isn't heat being added to the ice rather than "taken from the ice"?

Let dQH and dQC denote small amounts of heat taken from the hot reservoir and given to the cold reservoir, respectively, during a small step of the process. Use conservation of energy and the definition of efficiency η to express dQC in terms of η and dQH.
 
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TSny said:
Isn't heat being added to the ice rather than "taken from the ice"?

Let dQH and dQC denote small amounts of heat taken from the hot reservoir and given to the cold reservoir, respectively, during a small step of the process. Use conservation of energy and the definition of efficiency η to express dQC in terms of η and dQH.
I tried with this but I don't know if I am right!
1- (Qc/Qh)= 1-(Tc/T)
Qc/Qh = Tc/T
Qc=Qh*Tc/T

where Qh=∫m*C*dT
Qc in this case will be -358 kJ
But I can not still understand why should we multiply it by -1?
 
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Chestermiller said:
If the engine operates reversibly, the change in entropy of the water plus the ice is zero. What is the change in entropy of the water?

Bingo!

I should think on that as well!

Now I can write in this way :

S_ice=- S_water

Where S_water= ∫m*c/T *dT!

S_ice = Q_ice/T_c !

Now I have a good solution ! Thank you for this help:smile:
 
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