What is the Kretschmann Invariant?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Kretschmann Invariant in the context of General Relativity (GR). Participants explore its definition, implications, and related concepts, including the behavior of metric tensors and their traces. The scope includes theoretical aspects and mathematical reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the invariance of the Kretschmann Invariant, noting that its value seems to depend on the radial coordinate r, which changes between frames.
  • Another participant clarifies that r is the areal radius, which is invariant, and explains how the Kretschmann Invariant can be expressed in different coordinate systems.
  • Discussion includes the evaluation of the trace of the metric tensor, with one participant explaining that the sum of the diagonal components of the metric tensor yields a value of 4.
  • Participants discuss the Minkowski metric and its properties, noting that similar evaluations apply due to its simpler structure.
  • Questions arise about whether the trace evaluation applies to other tensors, such as the Riemann tensor, with some participants asserting that the argument is specific to metric tensors.
  • It is noted that the metric tensor is unique in its role of raising and lowering indices for other tensors, which affects the evaluation of their traces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the properties of the metric tensors and the evaluation of their traces, but there is ongoing discussion regarding the applicability of these properties to other tensors, indicating some disagreement or uncertainty in that area.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the implications of the trace evaluations for tensors beyond the metric tensors, and the discussion remains open on the nature of these relationships.

dyn
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Hi. I have a couple more questions in my quest to self-study GR.
1 - I have some notes where the Kretschmann Invariant is defined as Rk = RabuvRabuv and is given in Schwarzschild coordinates as Rk = 48u2/r6 . My notes say this is an invariant field so that its value at any point as evaluated in one frame is the same when evaluated in any other frame. But its value depends on r so when switching from one frame to another the value of r will change which means Rk will change. What is wrong with my thinking ?

2 - I came across the following in a "derivation" of the Einstein field equations : gvv = 4. I don't understand how or why this is true. As far as I know the components of g are normally not constants. On a similar issue what is ηvv where η is the Minkowski metric. For a general tensor A does Avv = A ? and what is A ? Is it a scalar ? an invariant ?

Thanks in anticipation for any help
 
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dyn said:
its value depends on r so when switching from one frame to another the value of r will change

No, it won't. The ##r## here is not the radial coordinate; it's the "areal radius", i.e., ##\sqrt{A / 4 \pi}##, where ##A## is the physical area of a 2-sphere containing the given event. So ##r## itself is an invariant, as it appears in the formula.

It is true that, if you change to a chart in which ##r## is not represented directly as a coordinate (for example, the Kruskal chart), the Kretschmann invariant will look different as a formula if you insist on writing it solely in terms of coordinates. But ##r##, the areal radius invariant, can still be expressed in terms of the coordinates in any chart, so you can always recover the form of ##R_k## that you wrote down.

dyn said:
I came across the following in a "derivation" of the Einstein field equations : gvv = 4. I don't understand how or why this is true.

The formula ##g^v{}_v## is shorthand for ##g^0{}_0 + g^1{}_1 + g^2{}_2 + g^3{}_3##. Each of these terms, in its turn, can be expanded as, for example, ##g^0{}_0 = g^{0u} g_{u0} = g^{00} g_{00} + g^{01} g_{10} + g^{02} g_{20} + g^{03} g_{30}##. If you substitute the formula for the inverse metric ##g^{uv}## (as the matrix inverse of the metric ##g_{uv}##) and work through the algebra, you will see that each of these sums comes out to ##1##, i.e., ##g^0{}_0 = 1##, and similarly for the other three terms in the sum. So ##g^v{}_v## is the sum of four terms each of which equals ##1##, i.e., it's ##4##.

dyn said:
what is ηvv where η is the Minkowski metric.

This works the same as above, except that the sums are much simpler because the Minkowski metric is diagonal and all of the diagonal elements are ##\pm 1##. So it's much easier to show that the sum works out to ##4##.

dyn said:
For a general tensor A does Avv = A ?

If you want to define it that way, yes. :wink: For a general tensor there isn't much you can say about the trace (which is the general term for ##A^v{}_v## for a general tensor), except the items below.

dyn said:
and what is A ? Is it a scalar ? an invariant ?

Yes to both. In fact the trace is the simplest scalar invariant that you can obtain from a 2nd-rank tensor.
 
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Here are a couple of ways of evaluating ##g^\nu_\nu## that may be easier.

Method 1: It's notated as a scalar (all indices are contracted), so its value is the same when evaluated in any coordinate system. Therefore you're free to evaluate it in Minkowski coordinates, which is easy.

Method 2: Or, note that ##g^\mu_\nu=g^{\mu\kappa}g_{\kappa\nu}## (using g to raise an index on itself). But the right-hand side is matrix multiplication, and the matrix representations of ##g^{\mu\kappa}## and ##g_{\kappa\nu}## are matrix inverses of each other, which tells us that as a matrix, ##g^\mu_\nu## is the identity matrix, whose trace is 4.
 
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Thanks for your replies. So gvv = ηvv = 4 . Does this value only apply to these 2 metric tensors? Does the inverse argument given above apply to other tensors eg Rv v . If the argument only applies to the two metric tensors what is special about them compared to other rank 2 tensors ?
 
dyn said:
Does this value only apply to these 2 metric tensors?

Yes.

dyn said:
Does the inverse argument given above apply to other tensors eg Rvv .

No. See below.

dyn said:
If the argument only applies to the two metric tensors what is special about them compared to other rank 2 tensors ?

The metric tensor (the Minkowski metric ##\eta_{uv}## is really just a special case of the general metric ##g_{uv}##) is the tensor that is used to raise and lower the indexes of all tensors, including itself. So for a general tensor ##R_{uv}##, raising one index gives ##R^u{}_v = g^{uw} R_{wv}##, which is not the product of a matrix with its own inverse, so taking the trace won't give 4 . But if the tensor is ##g## itself, then raising one index does give the product of a matrix with its own inverse, as bcrowell showed, so taking the trace will give 4.
 
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