What is the material that allows transverse but not longitudinal waves?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of materials that can support transverse waves but not longitudinal waves, particularly in the context of electromagnetic (EM) waves and historical theories such as the aether. Participants explore various examples and concepts related to wave propagation in different media, including solid-state physics and crystal lattices.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that early scientists proposed an aether for light, which was thought to be necessary for wave propagation, and question how they accounted for the absence of longitudinal light waves.
  • One participant suggests that if sound waves can be only longitudinal, it is plausible for light to be only transverse, raising questions about the nature of wave types.
  • Another participant proposes that waves on the surface of a liquid could be an example of transverse waves, although they acknowledge it may not fit the definition of a medium as intended by the original poster.
  • There is mention of phonons having both "optical" and "acoustic" modes, which could relate to the discussion of wave types in different contexts.
  • One participant asserts that there is no known material that can support only transverse displacement oscillations, but notes that certain lattices can support transverse 'spin' waves.
  • Another participant points out that sound waves in solids can be either transverse or longitudinal, referencing seismic waves as an example.
  • A participant references a study on generating transverse sound waves using a specific sample holder, questioning whether the term 'transverse' refers to the sample orientation.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the aether being in tension, suggesting it could support transverse waves, similar to a stretched string.
  • Historical theories, such as MacCullagh's treatment of particles as dislocations in a continuum, are mentioned as providing insight into light propagation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the existence and nature of materials that can support transverse waves without longitudinal waves. There is no consensus on a definitive example or resolution of the questions raised.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific studies and historical theories, but the discussion remains open-ended with unresolved questions regarding the nature of wave propagation in different media.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in solid-state physics, wave mechanics, historical theories of light propagation, and the nature of different wave types may find this discussion relevant.

Locrian
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I'm working problems on vibrations in crystal lattice for solid state, and a thought occurred to me. Early 20th century and late 19th century scientists supposed an aether for light to pass through. It seemed reasonable at the time - waves travel in a media.

However, EM waves are transverse. How did they (or did they?) account for the fact that there were no longitudinal light waves?

Another take on the question is this: what material allows transverse but not longitudinal waves? Am I missing something simple?
 
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Locrian said:
I'm working problems on vibrations in crystal lattice for solid state, and a thought occurred to me. Early 20th century and late 19th century scientists supposed an aether for light to pass through. It seemed reasonable at the time - waves travel in a media.

However, EM waves are transverse. How did they (or did they?) account for the fact that there were no longitudinal light waves?

Hum... I'm not sure why they would need to account for light being only a transverse wave. After all, back then, sound waves was only longitudinal. So if something can be only longitudinal, why can't light be only transverse?

Another take on the question is this: what material allows transverse but not longitudinal waves? Am I missing something simple?

I can't come up with something off the top of my head. Maybe someone else has an obvious example.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
I can't come up with something off the top of my head. Maybe someone else has an obvious example.

Waves on the surface of a liquid, perhaps? But that's not exactly "in a media" the way the OP wants.
 
cesiumfrog said:
Waves on the surface of a liquid, perhaps? But that's not exactly "in a media" the way the OP wants.

I guess if you consider different types of waves propagating in (or using) the same medium, that would certain qualify. I don't know of any in which the same type of waves in the same medium have both transverse and longitudinal.

This is not a medium, but phonons have both "optical" and "acoustic" modes/branches.

Zz.
 
There is no known material that can support transverse displacement oscillations. But a lattice that has an O(3) member at each node can support tranverse 'spin' waves.
 
ZapperZ said:
After all, back then, sound waves was only longitudinal.

Can't sound waves in a solid medium be either transverse or longitudinal? Seismic waves, which are sort of like sound, can be either transverse or longitudinal (S and P waves). I don't know when that was discovered, though.
 
Yes, I could be wrong.


"A new sample holder for excitation of transverse sound waves" Applied Physics A (2002)

A simple non-resonant sample holder with inclined electrodes is described by means of which transverse sound waves in the GHz range are easily generated by an evaporated piezoelectric layer. Because of its small size it is especially well suited for cryostat applications.

I'm not sure if the 'transverse' above just refers to the sample orientation. GHz sound ?

[Edit-------------------------------------------------------------------]
From here

http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/seismic-waves.html

I learn that P-waves are compression waves like sound, but S-waves are shear waves, like a carpet being shaken. So not sound.

Modern aether theorists admit that it has to be unphysical to carry the two transverse components, and also have non-local causality.
 
Last edited:
If the ether (space) is in tension, it can support transverse waves - just as does a stretched string. Robertson and others have explained cosmological red shift as a stretching of space ..There was an interesting theory by MacCullagh (1839) that treated particles as dislocations (voids in the continuum) which gave a decent account of light propagation
 
Thanks for your replies! They've given me a direction for more research in the topic.
 

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