What is the nature of information in black holes?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of information in black holes, particularly in the context of the debates between physicists Leonard Susskind and Stephen Hawking. Participants explore various interpretations of what constitutes information when it falls into a black hole, touching on theoretical implications and the conservation of information.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that information can be defined in terms of physical properties such as charge, spin, and mass.
  • One participant suggests that information encompasses everything needed to reproduce an object and its state, noting that while bits can quantify this information, it is not literally stored in bit form.
  • A participant references the historical debate between Hawking and Susskind, highlighting Hawking's initial claim that information is lost at the event horizon and Susskind's counterargument that information might be conserved on the black hole's surface, potentially as a quantum hologram.
  • Another participant mentions calculations suggesting that the surface area of a black hole increases in proportion to the information absorbed, although they do not provide specific sources for this claim.
  • One participant argues that the current definitions of information are incomplete, noting that black holes behave according to classical physics until one approaches the event horizon, where the situation becomes more complex.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature and definition of information in black holes, with no consensus reached on the topic. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of information loss versus conservation.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include the lack of clarity on definitions of information, the dependence on theoretical models, and unresolved mathematical aspects related to the conservation of information in black holes.

shounakbhatta
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Hello.

I was reading through Black holes and what happen when information falls inside the black hole. The intellectual battle between Susskind and Hawking...I also heard through the lectures on Susskind describing what is information.

(a) Bits
(b) A single photon
(c) The n number of molecules ......

If anybody can explain what is information?

Thanks.
 
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Information in this context is charge, spin, and mass
 
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I am also curious to know more about it.
 
In the context of something falling into a black hole, information is everything you would need to know to reproduce the object that has made the descent and its exact state. When estimating the amount of information required to describe such an object, the unit "bits" can be used - but the information is never actually in bit form. That is, if the amount of information required to fully describe a rock is X petabytes, that doesn't mean that that information is available for downloading to your X petabyte thumb drive.
 
shounakbhatta said:
Hello.

I was reading through Black holes and what happen when information falls inside the black hole. The intellectual battle between Susskind and Hawking...I also heard through the lectures on Susskind describing what is information.

(a) Bits
(b) A single photon
(c) The n number of molecules ......

If anybody can explain what is information?

Thanks.
The argument that Hawking first put forward was that all information was lost as material was torn to pieces at the event horizon. Susskind could not accept that all, or any?, information was lost.

Hawking redressed his original claim about the issue and put forward a proof that suggested that information might be conserved on the surface of a black hole, Susskind suggested that the conserved information might represent a type of quantum hologram - 2d with the aspects and illusions of 3d.

Calculations, by persons I can't quote, suggest that the surface of the black hole will increase proportional to the increase in information absorbed from the matter consumed, but I believe there is a published account of that argument. The Conservation of Information around a Black Hole...
 
This serves to demonstrate our definition of information is incomplete. Black holes seem entirely unaffected by this dichotomy. They are perfectly well behaved by all the usual laws of classical physics. It only gets weird when you probe around the event horizon.
 

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