What is the structure of FOOOF and FOOOOF?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the existence of FOOOF and other oxygen fluorides, their potential stability and properties, and possible methods for determining their structures, such as matrix isolation spectroscopy and calculation of IR spectra using ab initio programs.
  • #1
etotheipi
FOOF looks like this:

1606942855543.png


This paper suggests that FOOOF also exists but does not give a structure, although it does state that it's unlikely it takes the F-O-O-O-F structure. "Ignition: An informal history of liquid rocket propellants" claims that this series of compounds, up to FOOOOOOF, can exist.

How can we go about finding the structure of these more exotic species? Thanks!
 
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  • #2
Hmm. I do not know a resource, but I do not implicitly trust some of what you cited. Stability comes to mind. Are these odd molecules supposed to be stable at STP? Or do they require extreme cold? This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioxygen_difluoride (where you got your diagram)

says FOOF decomposes at ~(-160°C) Not exactly a kitchen friendly compound.
And it is named for its ability to oxidize and burst into flame almost with anything - it is onomatopoetic 'FOOF' for instant flammability.
 
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  • #4
etotheipi said:
"Ignition: An informal history of liquid rocket propellants" claims that this series of compounds, up to FOOOOOOF, can exist.
jim mcnamara said:
And it is named for its ability to oxidize and burst into flame almost with anything - it is onomatopoetic 'FOOF' for instant flammability.
Um, @etotheipi what are you building in your dorm room? :oops:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/magazine/rights-exempt/2018/09/pr-rockets/rockets-launch-black-rock-desert-nevada-7.ngsversion.1534392082215.adapt.1900.1.jpg

1606956245279.png
 
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  • #5
shhhhh, if college finds out they'll increase my rent! 🤭
 
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  • #7
etotheipi said:
How can we go about finding the structure of these more exotic species?

The short answer is, you don't unless you have a really, really, really pressing need to, something like a war, and even then you think twice. I suggest reading the Derek Lowe article that @TeethWhitener linked to. Of course, if you've read the "Ignition" book, you have already read hair-raising descriptions of such attempts.
 
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  • #8
PeterDonis said:
I suggest reading the Derek Lowe article that @TeethWhitener linked to.

You might also want to check out the link there to Lowe's article on chlorine trifluoride, which features a priceless quote from the "Ignition" book's discussion of that substance.
 
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  • #9
More to the point:
https://atct.anl.gov/Thermochemical Data/version 1.122/species/?species_number=935#ref_4
I’ve never personally worked with any of these compounds, but if I were going to try to determine their structure, I’d probably try to perform some sort of matrix isolation spectroscopy on them:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_isolation
Prepare the oxygen fluorides in situ, co-deposit them with argon on a cold finger and do IR spectroscopy. The matrix may perturb the system, but it’s a heck of a lot safer than anything else I can think of off the top of my head.
 
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  • #10
That's cool, haven't heard of that technique before! If I understand correctly, you'd prepare the compound you want to do the IR spec on in situ along with an excess of an inert gas like argon (which is also optically transparent), and then cool the whole thing so that the the argon forms a solid host matrix in which the compound is embedded?

And then, you'd somehow use the vibrational IR absorptions to deduce the structure? I've only covered quite basic IR spec, e.g. different types of stretches, rocking, wagging, that sort of thing (for common functional groups), but I don't know how complicated it is to try and recreate a molecule like this from the spectrum.
 
  • #11
etotheipi said:
If I understand correctly, you'd prepare the compound you want to do the IR spec on in situ along with an excess of an inert gas like argon (which is also optically transparent), and then cool the whole thing so that the the argon forms a solid host matrix in which the compound is embedded?
Yes.
etotheipi said:
And then, you'd somehow use the vibrational IR absorptions to deduce the structure? I've only covered quite basic IR spec, e.g. different types of stretches, rocking, wagging, that sort of thing (for common functional groups), but I don't know how complicated it is to try and recreate a molecule like this from the spectrum.
In practice, you’d throw the structure (or several candidate structures) into an ab initio program like Gaussian and calculate the IR spectrum, then compare it with the observed IR spectrum.
 
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  • #12
TeethWhitener said:
In practice, you’d throw the structure (or several candidate structures) into an ab initio program like Gaussian and calculate the IR spectrum, then compare it with the observed IR spectrum.

Oh yeah! I forgot that professional chemists don't waste time assigning spectra by hand 😜

Thanks!
 

1. What is the chemical formula for FOOOF and FOOOOF?

The chemical formula for FOOOF is FO2 and for FOOOOF is F2O3. This means that FOOOF has one fluorine atom and two oxygen atoms, while FOOOOF has two fluorine atoms and three oxygen atoms.

2. What is the molecular structure of FOOOF and FOOOOF?

The molecular structure of FOOOF and FOOOOF is tetrahedral. This means that the atoms are arranged in a pyramid shape with four equally spaced bonding pairs of electrons.

3. What is the bond angle in FOOOF and FOOOOF?

The bond angle in FOOOF and FOOOOF is approximately 109.5 degrees. This is due to the tetrahedral structure, which has bond angles of 109.5 degrees between each atom.

4. What are the properties of FOOOF and FOOOOF?

FOOOF and FOOOOF are both highly reactive and unstable compounds. They are powerful oxidizing agents and can cause severe burns upon contact with skin. They also have a pungent odor and are toxic if inhaled.

5. How is FOOOF and FOOOOF used in scientific research?

FOOOF and FOOOOF are used in a variety of research fields, including organic chemistry and materials science. They are also used as precursors in the production of other chemicals and in the study of chemical reactions involving fluorine and oxygen.

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