What would be proof that God exists?

[BoulderHead]

Hello DavidSF,
Here is what I’m seeing from reading your posts;

Your mind is not not focused on the kingdom of the heavens, because of this you cannot understand where I come from.

Translation; you do not believe as I believe, therefore you do not believe as I believe.

One day in the future you will know that even though you think you do not need God, He will still be there for you.

Needing God is emotional, whereas having conclusive proof of the existence of God is not. Don’t confuse the two. We all have emotional needs, so if you want to be cerebral about the matter it would be wise to have an appreciation for the difference.

I have not found any flaws in my Bible but many flaws in mans interpretation of the Bible.

How many flaws have you found in your own interpretation of the Bible?

I almost feel sorry for you, Your lack of insight is your weakness.

I have long contended that Xians cannot be so forgiving as atheists. After all, it is required to hold nonbelievers merit the eternal damnation a loving God has planned for them. As an atheist I can honestly extend to you my full sympathy, without reservation or caveat.

Only you stop yourself from understanding.

Translation; you too can believe what I believe if only you desire it deeply enough.

As I said before The knowledge of God (She) is your life, Seek her, Love her, and when you find Her and love Her then you will understand.

Translation; you too can believe what I believe if only you desire it deeply enough.

The knowledge of God is for those who love God and genuinely seek it, You do not know God nor his form.

Translation; you too can believe what I believe if only you desire it deeply enough.
Additionally, the failing is all your own doing (hence my inability to truly be a forgiving human being).

For this reason you do not understand me. If you loved God you would seek his knowledge and I would know you, and you would know me.

Translation; you too can believe what I believe if only you desire it deeply enough.

But I do not know you, and because you do not know me you will remain
un-enlightened so to speak.

Translation; you do not believe as I believe, therefore you do not believe as I believe. Additionally, I am enlightened for believing what I believe whereas you are found lacking.

 

[Nicomachus]

Page 5 Criticism of David

At the request of David I will now present an informal criticism of David's assertions from page 5 of this thread as he has offered it as proof of his erroneous positon which I have previously offered criticism. All quotes contained herein belong to David unless otherwise noted.

Who does the will of God, What is the will of God? Jesus knew these answers and God the Father already knows these answers.
If you don't know these answers you walk in fear and darkness.. You walk in sin..

Circulus in Demonstrando. Petitio Prinicpii. These are only a few of David's tactics.. What God? You cannot discuss these claims about God before you define God and prove its existence. You are simply assuming the conclusions you have come to, and you were going on about logic before, possibly you should study it more. Citing that someone is walking in fear because they do not accept your argument is pedantic.

Jesus said "The Father knows the Son and the Son knows the Father" which means simply that the Father knew and could read the knowledge thoughts of Jesus and those thoughts revealed to the Father that Jesus new the form of the Father.
Because it is the Fathers Will that we come to the full knowledge of the Father the Holy Spirit (the light of this world).
The Father is spirit.. Your Life force is spirit.. Your brothers Life force is spirit.. If you hate your brothers spirt you hate Gods Spirit..

Argumentum ad verecundiam. Also, this is irrelavent.

The spirit of God turns the Earth that you may have day and night and the seasons..
Jesus walked on water to reveal the living God to you in this way he reveals the Father (He walked with the law of God in his heart and mind for He new and loved his Father) who is the fundamental Holy Spirit POWER of the universe.

Blah blah blah. Prove it. And if you'd like, please define these concepts you are taking for granted as that is an important part of proving these statements are true.

God is the fundamental foundation of light itself (GRAVITY energy)..
Come to the full knowledge of that light, and then you will find and come to the full knowledge of your God the Father and your own Spirit.

Strange equivocation. No justification, petitio principii; so on and so forth. Nothing of substance here.

You were a part of the Spirit of God before you were born, and you will be a part of the Spirit of God Spirit when you say you die (You lived before and you will live after, God willing), and for now while you here on Earth you are the Spirit of God in the flesh, For Jesus told you, is it not written 'You are a Gods'.
Please understand and don't walk lower than the animals.. May God Bless you and forgive your ignorance..

Are you done preaching? Prove it. As well, stop being such so belligerant. You cannot call someone ignorant because they do not accept these non-axiomatic and ridiculous claims.

You want proof...

The definition of space-time, can it be separated from gravity or light? do you know your fourth dimensional motion (velocity) through the heavens? do you know the length of your second? do you truly know the real processes of electromagnetic propagation? much of this is still probably mystical and called phenomena to you.

Red herring. Some weird allusions to Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. As well, if you think "things" are not phenomena then I think you need an education. As well, please everyone notice the Delusions of Grandeur the knower or ultimate reality is displaying.

Why is the kingdom of heaven within you?

Is all you can offer a barrage of question begging and circular reasoninig? Ok, well let's see what other hair-brain concoctions you have to offer.

did you not know that inside the atom is an inverted mirror of what is occurring within the heavens.
Jesus said "all things come to them as parables because their is no root in them"
For this reason you do not know that the square root of the electron compton wavelength is, one over your total combination of galactic velocity vectors.

You sir have just violated 2 Peter 1.20. Are you not ashamed at your blasphemy? I know where this reference comes from, it is the parable of the sower, and you have decimated the verses and have applied a perverse and unwarranted interpretation, which is explicitly forbidden. Here is the verse reproduced

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

David, I must say I am appalled. This verse is not dicussing "square roots;" you are being heretical. Here is David Guzicks standard and correct intepretation:

Parable of the sower explained

a. Jesus considered this parable as essential to understanding His other parable

b. The planted word has one of four fates:

i . No effect whatsoever, because of their hardness of heart and blinding work of Satan (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
ii. Immediate reception but soon stumbling as soon as tribulation or persecution arises and the shallowness of their heart is made evident
iii. Planted well, but choked out by the cares of this world; the ground is too fertile and will accommodate anything
iv. Planted well and fruitful in varying measure, because the word is accepted

c. The fate of the crop does not rest on the sower or the seed, but on how the seed is received

No one is discussing galactic velocity vectors, stop being ridiculous.

Einstein also understood that three dimensional geometry could not describe space time, as his theory of relativity predicts.

Argumentum ad verecundiam. Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Red herring. In other words, blah blah blah.

Atomic mass can modify space time can it not? If it can then space time must be able to modify atomic mass structure. which says that space time is not as empty as you may think. Its full of God...

Wow, two non sequiturs in one assertion. Also I suppose you have sprinkled a bit of Non causa pro causa.

If mass is convertible to energy then energy is convertible to mass.

Strictly speaking, you have committed the fallacy of converting a conditional. Although, I contend this is a irrelavent. However, I must comment that I think you are alluding to either a Non causa pro causa or simply a non sequitur, perhaps both.

Your God is Energy, the very structure of space time which we can modulate and send waves through, all frequencies which travel at a singular speed, for this reason he sees everything.

God is the carrier of all sources of electromagnetic light, he even bought my advice to you.

And you wanted proof,

It is all around you. But this you see, but alas you don't see. God forgive You.

Blah blah blah. No substance.


I've responded to his other post on that page so I do not think another is warranted. So we see, David's "proof" is still nothing more than many naked assertions and a session of proselytization.
*Nico

 

[DavidSF]

Nico,
If God were to stand in front of you and said here I am.. You would not recognise Him.. You would not know Him.. You would attempt accuse Him also, as they attempted to accuse Jesus..

Luke 11:
52. "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.''
53. And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things,
54. lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.


If a man does 10,000 things right and appears to you do something thing wrong, you are so ready to crucify him.

Nico, there is a hatred for the truth deeply seated within you, It is possessing you and you can't see it.

I don't think there is any cure for this..

Good luck
David

 

[DavidSF]

Nico for your peace of mind my sins / blasphemes will be forgiven me.
Mark 3:
28. "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29. "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation''.

For your information, God is Spirit, a transparent like fluid, which is like crystal clear water, and which fills all of space-time and matter.

Revelation 22:
1. And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The Spirit of God is governed by laws which control its use and these laws should not be broken, these are the laws of God, laws which man has not yet understood or perceived. These are the fundamental laws governing light and the structure of gravity and time itself.

Jesus did not walk on water because he wanted to be a smart alec, but to draw your attention to the laws of gravity, the structure of time which he understood.

Jesus the son of God reveals his Spirit, and reveals his Father in
John 8:
12. Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.''

The process of converting energy to matter is a living process, look at the sand on the beaches and under the sea, it it not shells once living creatures (life).

You yourself Nico are a part of this process, don't deny your life, but come to understand what you are.

Because God is the (creative) energy of the universe, and a clear transparent fluid (the living waters) he cannot be seen because he is transparent, but everything exists only because He exists, and wants to reveal himself and his laws to you, and everyone else.

Don't fight against what will ultimately be revealed, but enjoy the challenge because it is not magic, but part of the laws governing light, electromagnetism and atomic behaviour.
Put the time into study this subject and you will give time back to God, after all he has given time to you that you might live, do this, and you will see God within your own mind, clear as crystal.

That is enough for now.

Peaceful thoughts
David

 

[olde drunk]

DavidSF:

where's the meat? you offer not proof, only quotes from misguided men that you are affraid to question.

some of what they say may be accurate. what investigation have you done to believe that 100% of these quotes are worthwhile?

as said in one quote, they are SEEDS to be planted into our psyche so that we THINK! that's all.

we should think about the ideas and reach our own conclusions. we can not, and should not unconditionally accept the explanation of any other person.

if there is a god, he provided freewill, use it!

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Nicomachus]

Nico,
If God were to stand in front of you and said here I am.. You would not recognise Him.. You would not know Him.. You would attempt accuse Him also, as they attempted to accuse Jesus..

Luke 11:
52. "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.''
53. And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things,
54. lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.


If a man does 10,000 things right and appears to you do something thing wrong, you are so ready to crucify him.

Nico, there is a hatred for the truth deeply seated within you, It is possessing you and you can't see it.

I don't think there is any cure for this..

Good luck
David

David I don't have any hatred for the truth; I'm just tired of your nonsense. You cannot defend *any* criticism so you resort to attacking me and spouting verses which you have yet to demonstrate the veracity. I have, in turn, demonstrated that I am more knowledgeable about this Bible you keep quoting. All you do is talk about "Woe is Nico who is going to burn in Hell but I forgive him" blah blah blah. Look, if you want to be a mindless idiot and be subserviant to nonsense then that is fine by me, but you came to this forum under the guise of seeking intellectual discussion but you have offered nothing but attempts at proselytizing.

The problem is that I am not swayed by ridiculous emotional pleas and youth-minister level discourse. I do not accept the god-concept as meaningful so when you say "You wouldn't recognize God" blah blah blah "God will forgive for your ignorance" it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't care. Provide intellectual discourse and rebuttal and dispense with this nosense. You are not attempting to "seek truth" or whatever b.s. you read in a fortune cookie; you are simply trying to have an indoctrination session and run from any criticism.

DO you know what circular reasoning, or any of the other fallacies I recognized in your argument? Do you realize you cannot come to proper or meaningful conclusions when you commit these fallacies. Also, you have NOT justified your blasphemy by disregarding 2 Peter 1.20.

In turn, I think you are deeply indoctrinated and wield the Sword of Irrationality with such might that there is no reasoning with you.
*Nico

 

[Nicomachus]

Nico for your peace of mind my sins / blasphemes will be forgiven me.
Mark 3:
28. "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29. "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation''.

For your information, God is Spirit, a transparent like fluid, which is like crystal clear water, and which fills all of space-time and matter.

Revelation 22:
1. And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The Spirit of God is governed by laws which control its use and these laws should not be broken, these are the laws of God, laws which man has not yet understood or perceived. These are the fundamental laws governing light and the structure of gravity and time itself.

Jesus did not walk on water because he wanted to be a smart alec, but to draw your attention to the laws of gravity, the structure of time which he understood.

Jesus the son of God reveals his Spirit, and reveals his Father in
John 8:
12. Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.''

The process of converting energy to matter is a living process, look at the sand on the beaches and under the sea, it it not shells once living creatures (life).

You yourself Nico are a part of this process, don't deny your life, but come to understand what you are.

Because God is the (creative) energy of the universe, and a clear transparent fluid (the living waters) he cannot be seen because he is transparent, but everything exists only because He exists, and wants to reveal himself and his laws to you, and everyone else.

Don't fight against what will ultimately be revealed, but enjoy the challenge because it is not magic, but part of the laws governing light, electromagnetism and atomic behaviour.
Put the time into study this subject and you will give time back to God, after all he has given time to you that you might live, do this, and you will see God within your own mind, clear as crystal.

That is enough for now.

Peaceful thoughts
David

Blah blah blah. Red herring. Look, this does not justify your violation of 2 Peter 1.20. You used your blasphemy of 2 Peter 1.20 in order to come to a conclusion, which in itself was ridiculous, and such is erroneous and therefore all conclusions you have made following from this reasoning must be erroneous. That is quite enough though you are correct. David you are common.
*Nico

 

[russ_watters]

You know, and this is my observation, I tend to think this is a myth. I would say women on the whole are not as religious as men, in actuality, but play that role in public. Men tend to be far more dogmatic, from my experience anyway and I have much experience in this matter. *Nico

Well - I do see (again, just my perception) that there are a lot more "Sunday Christian" women than men. They dress up nice and go to church because that's what they are expected to do even though they have no real beliefs.

Oh and russ, Greek isn't a dead language =).

Well ok then, to put a finer point on it, they are translations from a dead language.

 

[Nicomachus]

Well - I do see (again, just my perception) that there are a lot more "Sunday Christian" women than men. They dress up nice and go to church because that's what they are expected to do even though they have no real beliefs. Well ok then, to put a finer point on it, they are translations from a dead language.

Now that, I agree with.
*Nico

 

[DavidSF]

Dear Nico and even to you olde drunk,
If you had worked and studied hard for twenty years and developed a scientific level of understanding which is well beyond what is being taught today in the institutions, would you give it away indiscriminately on a forum such as this, to people such as yourselves.
I think not..
I am at a level of understanding and already corporately moving using this universal scientific knowledge gained.
Currently my company's website contains some information on this unique information, which you ask from me as proof.
I now have a scientific research team who work with me, in the area of atomic physics, and universal power and energy.

My faithfull patience has been rewarded as was promised in
Mathew 6:
33. "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

I suggest you work in the field (reaping) and earn your own wages and subsequent respect from God, as I did.

John 4:
36. "And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
37. "For in this the saying is true: `One sows and another reaps.'
38. "I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.''

It unrealistic and unfair for you to ask me to give to you my wages, but it is fair that you earn your own wages.. believe me the job offer is out there, but you have to want to work for those wages.

Matthew 20
1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2. "Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3. "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4. "and said to them, `You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And they went.

There are many people in the world who are still babes in the eyes of God, unable to eat of solid food, but live on the milk of the word only, and there are many churches which only teach this type of doctrine.
If these babes are given meat too quickly and before they are weaned and made ready for solid food they vomit it out, unable to digest it.

For this reason I suggest you consider the following statements:

Mathew 5:
20. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

And

Mathew 23:
13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in".

I cannot make it clearer to you all than this.. Think and reason between yourselves.. Religion based knowedge is a scientific wonderworld and not just the old church teachings.

The best Bible is the New King James. Unadulterated(a direct translation from the scrolls), is written in modern english and the numbers are in conventional format (Very important for researching).

Nico ask others what they think, give them all a chance to say something, don't hog the channel so to speak, be a gentleman. After all it is supposed to be an open scientific forum.

And Nico please don't call me, or imply that I am an idiot! I have never insulted you in this way, and for a man who says "I am more knowledgeable about this Bible you keep quoting" you are getting very close to the line here..
Mathew 5:
22. "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, `Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, `You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire".

David.

 

[BoulderHead]

Dear Nico and even to you olde drunk,
If you had worked and studied hard for twenty years and developed a scientific level of understanding which is well beyond what is being taught today in the institutions, would you give it away indiscriminately on a forum such as this, to people such as yourselves.
I think not..

Well, then may I suggest the next time you don’t bother with statements like;

Proof
You want proof...
It is all around you. But this you see, but alas you don't see….

I am at a level of understanding and already corporately moving using this universal scientific knowledge gained.
Currently my company's website contains some information on this unique information, which you ask from me as proof.
I now have a scientific research team who work with me, in the area of atomic physics, and universal power and energy.

Translation; if you knew what I knew, you’d know what I know.

Not really very helpful, is it?

[edit: would you be so kind as to provide a link to your website? I would like to come over for a visit]

 

[DavidSF]

BoulderHead,

I did not come here to promote myself, but to encourage others to look beyond the conventional viewpoint of scripture, I try to open other peoples eyes and minds.

I have an obvious interest in other peoples views on God, and your forum subject intrigued me. I have met many people with my viewpoint toward scripture, all are highly skilled and qualified people. I hope you all have the strength of characture to be independant in thought towards this very subject, but don't ask the church, they don't understand. So I repeat myself.
Mathew 23:
13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in".

I have only scratched the surface of this knowledge base, one day you may find yourself working on a subject or project gleaned from scripture based knowledge.

I have sent you a message on how to find the website..

David

 

[loseyourname]

I did not come here to promote myself, but to encourage others to look beyond the conventional viewpoint of scripture, I try to open other peoples eyes and minds.

You came to the wrong place. Most of us could care less about scripture. Maybe you should try a religious forum.

 

[DavidSF]

Me thinks loseyourname maybe in the wrong area of the forum,
Did you loseyourway.

 

[Nicomachus]

Dear Nico and even to you olde drunk,
If you had worked and studied hard for twenty years and developed a scientific level of understanding which is well beyond what is being taught today in the institutions, would you give it away indiscriminately on a forum such as this, to people such as yourselves.
I think not..
I am at a level of understanding and already corporately moving using this universal scientific knowledge gained.
Currently my company's website contains some information on this unique information, which you ask from me as proof.
I now have a scientific research team who work with me, in the area of atomic physics, and universal power and energy.

My faithfull patience has been rewarded as was promised in
Mathew 6:
33. "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

I suggest you work in the field (reaping) and earn your own wages and subsequent respect from God, as I did.

John 4:
36. "And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
37. "For in this the saying is true: `One sows and another reaps.'
38. "I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.''

It unrealistic and unfair for you to ask me to give to you my wages, but it is fair that you earn your own wages.. believe me the job offer is out there, but you have to want to work for those wages.

Matthew 20
1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2. "Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3. "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4. "and said to them, `You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And they went.

There are many people in the world who are still babes in the eyes of God, unable to eat of solid food, but live on the milk of the word only, and there are many churches which only teach this type of doctrine.
If these babes are given meat too quickly and before they are weaned and made ready for solid food they vomit it out, unable to digest it.

For this reason I suggest you consider the following statements:

Mathew 5:
20. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

And

Mathew 23:
13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in".

I cannot make it clearer to you all than this.. Think and reason between yourselves.. Religion based knowedge is a scientific wonderworld and not just the old church teachings.

The best Bible is the New King James. Unadulterated(a direct translation from the scrolls), is written in modern english and the numbers are in conventional format (Very important for researching).

Nico ask others what they think, give them all a chance to say something, don't hog the channel so to speak, be a gentleman. After all it is supposed to be an open scientific forum.

And Nico please don't call me, or imply that I am an idiot! I have never insulted you in this way, and for a man who says "I am more knowledgeable about this Bible you keep quoting" you are getting very close to the line here..
Mathew 5:
22. "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, `Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, `You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire".

David.

Blah blah blah David. You still refuse to respond to criticism? Your rebuttal is that you have some secret knowledge that you don't want the world to know about ... huh? Make some sense. None of that justifies your violation of 2 Peter 1.20 NOR can it ever possibly justify the NUMEROUS fallacies you have committed. I went to your company's website and it, frankly, contains more information on Perth than anything relavent to this thread. The argument "Because Pi=The circumference of a circle, God must necessarily exist" is not sufficient. And before you cry foul, this is the same sort of reasoning you have been using.

As well, I never called you an idiot; I simply said if you wanted to be a mindless-idiot then that is fine with me. But you sir have made many insults to me. You have thus far called me ignorant, afraid, given me "pity" and so on simply because I do not accept your absurd and ridiculous position. Don't threaten me with this hellfire nonsense because I frankly don't care.
Furthermore, I am not "hogging the channel" everyone is free to post. This is your defense, I am writing too often so you must be right? You have not offered one thing of substance. Granted, you have made assertions but they have been riddled with fallacies you refuse to concede, defend or make any attempt at rebuttal, much less acknowledge your erroneous statements.

If you would like to discuss the Bible then that is fine; I have demonstrated that I know much more about it than you do. You seem to take some kind of linguistic nominalism stance towards the Bible though, very odd. Why do you think the NKJV is the "best version" of the Bible, because you speak English and they changed Unicorn to Ox. You know why that is? Because a unicorn is a fairy tale creature and they wouldn't want to have fairy tale creatures in the book of ultimate reality. Though, I know much more about this subject than that but I do not know why you bring it up. One would think the original language would be the most correct, and by extension better, version. I suppose not because you don't know Greek or Hebrew and so you would not be able to cling to your Delusions of Grandeur at being the knower of ultimate reality if the clearest description of that reality were not written in a language that you know. Not only do you suffer from Delusions of Grander but you are an elitist!

Look, your delusions of Corporate Elitism or whatever the hell you are going on about will not save you. I have presented intellectual discourse but you only provide sermons and respond to criticism with condescending and pedantic attacks, with your slave mentality, threatening me with hellfire and taking "pity upon me." In your 30 or so years of scientific discovery, as you say, I suppose you have not taken the time to become an adult and to learn to reason as a man should, not as a subserviant child.
*Nico

 

[DavidSF]

Nico, I don't threaten you, because I did not write those passages within the scripture, is this maybe your own conscience speaking..

We are not acheiving anything or getting anywhere, let's just leave it at that, and agree to dissagree, I am happy with that fact, and others can make up their own minds.

I appologise if you feel I may have insulted you, if I did it was not intentional, I was probably generalising considering the amount of terrorism and wars which are in this world..

Keep safe
David.

 

[DavidSF]

I appologise to anyone who may feel I have insulted them, if you were insulted it was not intended, the scripture itself is very pointed and can easily be taken far too personally.

David

 

[olde drunk]

Giving My Gifts

gee, if i worked 20 years and found a profound answer to save the world "would i give it away"?

ABSOLUTE - LY! (my fav booze).

it's the christian thing to do. did christ charge for his sermons? just because the apostles and their followers began charging for blessings and indulgences doesn't mean it was the correct thing to do.

give it away! you can't take it with you! or is it so mystical that even you do not know how to explain the information you have?

regardless, i don't pay no stinkin donation or tithe or contribution cause organized religion is the biggest biz on the planet.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[DavidSF]

Good on you, olde drunk,

But can't you see what happened, Jesus tried so hard to give it away to whom ever wanted it, but almost no one listened, they thought he was superior and a threat to them somehow, he became a man hated without a cause, why? He only had love in his heart, and the knowledge of God to give us all.. Your a smart and experienced man capable of independant thought judge this for yourself.. But we have a Bible because a few men saw and had the guts to see the value in what Jesus said..

I wish it were that simple that I could just give it all away, but alas, it would be abused by some, such that it would not nescessarily save the world but could be used to destroy men and maybe the world..

Yes God exists but the system has a built in safeguard, for all our sakes, for this is the reason that power is only available to the disciplined (disciples).

I do know how to explain the information (gift) I have. but under the circumstances tell me, who do I give the information to, tell me who can be trusted. Loyal and true brothers are so hard to find..

Love&Peace
David

 

[olde drunk]

man's very nature is GOOD! (he is in the likeness of god). we only see the negative when we believe in the evil of man.

as you BELIEVE, so shall it be.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Nicomachus]

Nico, I don't threaten you, because I did not write those passages within the scripture, is this maybe your own conscience speaking..

We are not acheiving anything or getting anywhere, let's just leave it at that, and agree to dissagree, I am happy with that fact, and others can make up their own minds.

I appologise if you feel I may have insulted you, if I did it was not intentional, I was probably generalising considering the amount of terrorism and wars which are in this world..

Keep safe
David.

There you go again with your self-righteousness. No it is not my "conscience" talking, it is you and your nonsense. Defend yourself. You entered this thread with only the intention of proselytizing; why have you not responded to any criticism? I don't care about your irrelavent and emotional Bible verses, they have no relavence. Now you are going on some tangent about terrorism. Nonsense. All you have are vacuous arguments and you try to distract others away from your erroneous assertions with all these kind of statements. Don't be so intellectually dishonest; defend the criticism or concede.
*Nico

 

[dschouten]

OLDE DRUNK:

man's very nature is GOOD! (he is in the likeness of god). we only see the negative when we believe in the evil of man.
as you BELIEVE, so shall it be.

First, I must tell you how I much I empathise with you and your attempts to at least broach the topic reasonably with the oft-debunked wierdo DavidSF.

Nonetheless, the above quote is a farce, and shouldn't be allowed to pass by without reproach. Consider, if man's nature is good, whence this belief in the evil of man? Specifically, who is doing the believing? I can only assume that man is believing in the evil of man...which begs the question, why would a good being invent a belief in its own evil?

 

[dschouten]

I don't care about your irrelavent and emotional Bible verses, they have no relavence.

Of course you do, otherwise this forum wouldn't even exist...

For all the atheists out there, we sure spend a lot of time talking about God.

 

[Nicomachus]

Of course you do, otherwise this forum wouldn't even exist...

For all the atheists out there, we sure spend a lot of time talking about God.

dschouten, no you must understand what I mean. I meant that I do not care about the particular Bible verses he recited pertaining to emotional pleas and speaking of me going to hell or being ignorant. The verse about the Sower and so forth are perfectly fine for this discussion. Quoting random verses though, I find irrelavent and unproductive.
*Nico

 

[dschouten]

dschouten, no you must understand what I mean. I meant that I do not care about the particular Bible verses he recited pertaining to emotional pleas and speaking of me going to hell or being ignorant. The verse about the Sower and so forth are perfectly fine for this discussion. Quoting random verses though, I find irrelavent and unproductive.
*Nico

Ok, sounds good.

 

[DavidSF]

Nico,
Why do you seem so intent on trying to prove that there is no God? if this is your intent, then who in the world could say anything that could change your mind.
Tell us, define for us, what is the truth for you Nico, what would you call proof of God's existence.

Just so that you can complain again about my irrelavent information, this is the truth in my eyes.

Proverbs 6:
23. For the commandment is a lamp, and the law is light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life.

David

 

[olde drunk]

Nico,
Why do you seem so intent on trying to prove that there is no God? if this is your intent, then who in the world could say anything that could change your mind.
Tell us, define for us, what is the truth for you Nico, what would you call proof of God's existence.

Just so that you can complain again about my irrelavent information, this is the truth in my eyes.

Proverbs 6:
23. For the commandment is a lamp, and the law is light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life.

David

if i may butt in? lol

no one said they didn't believe in god.

we simply found your blind faith foolish. quoting the bible, to people who dismiss it as a source of valid information, is fruitless.

to my satisfaction, i have proved, to myself, that there is something. i would rather discuss the nature of reality with an atheist than a bible banger. we can expand our beliefs without trying to change the other.

i do not believe that there is a PATH. we each have our own personal path that leads us toward fulfillment.

in reality, no one can prove anything. we each must find our truth.

dschouten

which begs the question, why would a good being invent a belief in its own evil?

who knows? is it possible that that the church elders said/did this to control the faithful? in other words, you don't understand what we know, and BECAUSE you have the capability to do evil you must believe us. and, oh yeah, it is this evil nature that will deny you heaven, BUT, listen to us and we will show you how to gain heaven.

oh, what is heaven? gee, let's see. ummmm, it is a glorious place where you can have any and everything you wish; even 69 virgins. so? is it worthwhile listening to and obeying us?

does this sound like the best marketing scheme, EVER?

that's my guess. since rejecting traditional beliefs, ironically, i have found a better world. think real hard. don't you feel better when you do something nice and worse when you do something wrong? these feelings, for me, bespeak the true nature of man.

perhaps an oversimplification, but it works.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[DavidSF]

Ye olde drunk,
Have you not caught on yet, can't you see where I am coming from, I am the exact opposite to a Bible banger, if you went to the church with what I have said, they would throw you out, big time man.

We have an invisible all powerful energy (God 'For thine is the kingdom, the POWER and the glory forever') which works according to the rules of electrical and the electromagnetic energy laws of nature (he created all things even electrical energy 'comprendeee'). And the fundamental structure of space time itself. (have you heard the biblical expression 'Sit at the right hand of God' do you know the right hand rule for electromagnetic energy).

Please don't tell me the creator of the universe cannot see the future and has not had a hand in our current day terminolgy.

I have already said that the church doctrine is inadequate in that:
Mathew 23:
13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

I tried to represent to you all an alternate scientific viewpoint, It has personally led me into an incredible technical insite into the functioning of our atomic universe.

All I am saying is look for yourselves, don't just take my word for it. It is enough that I draw your attention to it.

I know that your first impressions are of immense dis-belief, but you are all smart enough (I hope) to have the intelligence to understand that you should ask this question within your own minds:
Why over over thousands of years of blood, sweat and tears was the Bible written (Inspired by God) for you all, if it was not for your complete mental development, so that you could finally see in your mind and know your creator (Father), and understand the fundamental energy laws of the universe itself (after all God is the universe and these laws, he cannot break his own laws).

Step outside of the conventional church doctrines and look beyond the milk of the word.

Step into the knowledge that opens up the heavens to you. I can't make it any clearer for you all.

Good luck and God bless.

David.

 

[Janitor]

the Bible written (Inspired by God)- DavidSF

Some Believers go so far as to say that God essentially dictated the original words of the Bible directly to the human writers. Then, given the scripture which says something like "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever," it follows that God also speaks directly to modern Believers as well.

A challenge for David or any other Believer: Post for us the lead headline of the New York Times for July 1, 2004. Now you may well object on the basis that God doesn't want just anybody knowing such a piece of information ahead of time. If that is your objection, go ahead and post an anagram of the headline. (Example: OSAMA CAPTURED can be converted to the anagram AAACDEMOPSTU)

Or alternatively, tell us why God refuses to do this for you.

 

[loseyourname]

does this sound like the best marketing scheme, EVER?

It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous. -- Gloria Steinem

 

[DavidSF]

How many people have had a premonition, given usually for the purpose of self preservation, to protect you, some even say I have a guardian angel.

We all receive visions and other information, in dreams or awake etc, a form of deja-vu, but most people have been told by others who don't receive much, it is just mere coincidences.

It doesn't matter whether asleep or awake, it still happens. It is in fact the ability of the mind to communicate, as a sort of extra sensory perception, prayer is a perfected example of this type of communication.

As far as the New York Times for July 1, 2004 goes, All I received is "Though shall not tempt the Lord thy God", Sorry.

David.

 

[loseyourname]

God still speaks to you in Elizabethan English?

 

[DavidSF]

It is not me who speaks:
John 6:
56. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

 

[NeutronStar]

If God would buy me a Mercedes Benz that'd be proof enough for me.

 

[eureka]

Just a thought.. How could you explain the intricate design of the DNA? which is the signature of all living things.

if there's a design, there should be a designer.

 

[NeutronStar]

if there's a design, there should be a designer.

This is only true if the design is pre-planned. There's no logical reason to believe that DNA or living things were necessarily pre-planned.

 

[Nicomachus]

DavdSF, tsk tsk.

2 Peter 1.20: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. "

Oh, eureka, that's funny. I love the teleological, its so ridiculous. Anyway, you are begging the question so I don't see your point. heh.
*Nico

 

[PFanalog57]

Here is an interesting/strange proof:


http://www.talkaboutreligion.com/group/alt.religion.new/messages/3521.html

Mary Baker Eddy founded the church in 1879 in Boston
as a "scientific" Church. Her "science of God"
amounted to the following:

1. "God is mind"
2. "Heaven is a mental state"
3. God is a perfect man with a perfect mind
4. There is no perfect man on Earth

Now, bear in mind, this is the first religion in
history to make an actual scientific statement about
what God is: It says, "God is mind".

 

[Janitor]

Re Mary Baker Eddy

A good ten years ago I listened to quite a few of Bob Larson's Christian radio programs. That was back when his format was to invite people to phone him and discuss or debate his particular brand of Christianity. (I drifted away when his program evolved into on-the-air exorcisms.) If I am remembering correctly, he was especially abusive of Christian Science, in addition to Mormonism and maybe Jehovah's Witness.

 

[DavidSF]

Originally Posted by eureka
(Just a thought.. How could you explain the intricate design of the DNA? which is the signature of all living things.

if there's a design, there should be a designer.)

The true motions within the heavens for all atomic matter is spiral (not circular), from our relative perspective we incorrectly assume circular motion. The solar system is not stationary and the universal does not revolve around us, we move at high velocity through the universe.

For this reason the spiral DNA pattern is produced in the format it is. The Earth spirals around other bodies, for example the Sun. The created DNA cell pattern is therefore principlely designed, following the laws of the main spiral path, and the smaller refinements are inserted by more local daily spiral influences.

The laws constructing the spiral design are written in the scripture, The designer is God as he is the velocity/energy of these Spiral laws.

David

 

[DavidSF]

Dear Nico,
Go home and study, you don't have the intelligence to be able to answer my own personal questions let alone the question others. eureka asked a very intelligent question and you thought it was funny and ridiculous, he deserved a sensible answer.
I hope everybody has the intelligence to see you Nico for what you are.
There is much to learn by all and we learn by listening, in this way we become wise.

Proverbs 1:
5. A wise man will hear and increase learning, and a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,

David

 

[eureka]

Thank you for the support DavidSF :)

 

[dschouten]

The true motions within the heavens for all atomic matter is spiral (not circular), from our relative perspective we incorrectly assume circular motion. The solar system is not stationary and the universal does not revolve around us, we move at high velocity through the universe.

For this reason the spiral DNA pattern is produced in the format it is. The Earth spirals around other bodies, for example the Sun. The created DNA cell pattern is therefore principlely designed, following the laws of the main spiral path, and the smaller refinements are inserted by more local daily spiral influences.

David

The nonsensical drivel you continually perpetuate shouldn't be dignified with an argument against it. Yours are the foolish ramblings of a dreamer or conjurer who has thus far refused to bring any of his dreams or "hypothesis" (using the term loosely) to the test of reality.

In short, you should just shut your vitual mouth and take your new age mysticism back to the crack syringe it came from.

A much better explanation of DNA design (in point form for the sake of brevity):

1. Dogs bark
2. When ice freezes it is cold.
3. The universe is made of stuff.
4. Round things move helically.
5. Therefore, clearly, DNA.

A similar argument could establish David S.F.'s inability to reason:

1. The solar system is made of little fairy gods.
2. When my hair falls out, the spirt of the great bear weeps.
3. Smoking crack moves one up the ladder of zen.
4. Therefore, David cannot think.

 

[RAD4921]

Universe by design

The design argument for the existence of God seems to be the greatest proof of some sort of intelligence governing the universe. Indeed there is a great deal of complex organization in the universe and it is natural to ask why. Some people claim that Buddhist are atheist but this has to do with people who are "enlightened" claiming that the ultimate reality of the universe is beyond explanation.
Most atheist are people who are not very educated and are in conflict with their religion that predominates in their culture (For an instance, Christianity in the United States)or are nonbelievers for political reasons. The word "god" implies a being that is supreme and this can come into conflict of what consciousness might be. The idea of a hierarchy of consciousness is a turn off to some modern thinkers and these people may be labeled "atheist' simply for semantic reasons.
Well educated atheist argue the design argument for the existence of "god" say that the universe is the way it is because a roll of the dice. That a cyclic or an infinite replicating universe(s) would eventually produce a universe that would develope life and APPEAR highly organized.
Physicist Stephan Hawking said in his famous book' "A Breif History of Time", that the chances of the universe creating itself the way it is by accident, would be like a monkey randomly banging out a Shakespeare play on a typewriter.

I find great psycholgical comfort believing in an cosmic intelligence and I tend to lean in that direction because of the great amount of organization in the universe (The word organism comes from the word "organize". If I am wrong and my consciousness is mortal and I will fail to exist for eternity then that isn't so horrible. Some people claim that the idea of immortality frightens them. Who knows?
"For God to pass judgment upon us would be for him to pass judgment upon himself"---Albert Einsten

 

[DavidSF]

dschouten,

If your so clever why don't you explain the reason for DNA design to eureka.. If I am so wrong you must know the right facts okay, Oh sorry I had not noticed, you already did when you wrote the following.

"1. Dogs bark
2. When ice freezes it is cold.
3. The universe is made of stuff.
4. Round things move helically.
5. Therefore, clearly, DNA"

My appologies for not noticing before,

David

 

[DavidSF]

RAD4921
You mentioned the following:
"Well educated atheist argue the design argument for the existence of "god" say that the universe is the way it is because a roll of the dice".

Are you aware that Einstein has already said, "God does not play dice".

Sorry about the background noise in the forum, it may go away soon and we can all get into a serious discussion without being so distracted.

David.

 

[RAD4921]

To David

I think you are a very intelligent person. I agree that spirals are seen in all levels of the universe. From seashells, hurricanes, galaxies and the double helix of DNA just to name a few. :)

 

[RAD4921]

To David

Yes I am aware of that quote-while he was arguing quantum mechanics- (I am wearing my Albert Einstein tee shirt right now). He also said "body and soul are not two separate things but two different ways of perceiving the same thing"
Einstein and many physicists along with the majority of the great philosophers believed in God or some type of intelligence governing the universe. It is estimated that 4/5ths of the world's population believes in God and I am not in the minority:)

 

[DavidSF]

RAD4921, Thanks, my faith is restored, God did give some of us the ability to reason,
Isaiah 1:
18. "Come now, and let us reason together,'' says the Lord,
David

 

[DavidSF]

RAD4921,
God is sometimes referred to as being all knowledge and wisdom, It seems the more knowledge and wisdom we obtain about the universe and its operating principles, the closer we become to him and the more we become aware of his existence.

All the brilliant scientific minds of the past, generally developed a healthy respect for the existence of a God, This cannot be just a mere coincidence.

David