Music Which music do you dislike the most?

[stevendaryl]

It's music. Simply because it can be written as music. One does not have to invent an extra notation. For me, it's a bit like the empty set or zero. We need both to do mathematics and I regard them as among the most important findings of mankind. So why not have a music play without sound?

It's the French Horn part from Beethoven's 5th. It's rarely performed on piano, though.

 

[rokytnji]

Finding out that Capt Beefheart is a musical genius. While most folks could not stand his art because of pre-programmed taste buds in their brain.

I kinda equate this thread to flavors of icecream, versions of linux, type of motorcycle, bicycle, or car. Druthers.

Me? I can listen to Taureg Nomad desert muscians. Rock and Roll. Rap. Country. Bluegrass. Big Band. Classical. Opera. You name it. I play it in my motorcycle shop to make the work go easier and faster. It does something to my body to calm tension and get into a flow. My inner emotions that day will determine the play list. I keep a 200 watt per channel Linux streaming computer with a ton of .pls and .mtu files on hand that hook up to worldwide streaming radio stations. Here is a example

http://www.radionovak.com/

But then. I don't over think these things.
You can guess, I guess, my vote goes on the last choice under " Heavy Metal "

 

[NTL2009]

4’33” does have sound, just not from the performer:

They missed the point. There's no such thing as silence. What they thought was silence, because they didn’t know how to listen, was full of accidental sounds. You could hear the wind stirring outside during the first movement. During the second, raindrops began pattering the roof, and during the third the people themselves made all kinds of interesting sounds as they talked or walked out.
— John Cage speaking about the premiere of 4′33″[9]

Cage was inspired by Zen Buddhism and the idea of listening to sound for its own sake

Good to see a bit more background on 4' 33''. Now I'm not going to defend it, anyone who feels it is stupid/silly or a scam is entitled to their view, but since this is a scientific group, it might be interesting to realize that the 'composition' was inspired by science (years before Thomas Dolby!).

From wiki ( https://goo.gl/Xzaizv ) bold mine... :

In 1951, Cage visited the anechoic chamber at Harvard University. An anechoic chamber is a room designed in such a way that the walls, ceiling and floor absorb all sounds made in the room, rather than reflecting them as echoes. Such a chamber is also externally sound-proofed. Cage entered the chamber expecting to hear silence, but he wrote later, "I heard two sounds, one high and one low. When I described them to the engineer in charge, he informed me that the high one was my nervous system in operation, the low one my blood in circulation."[14] Cage had gone to a place where he expected total silence, and yet heard sound. "Until I die there will be sounds. And they will continue following my death. One need not fear about the future of music."[15] The realization as he saw it of the impossibility of silence led to the composition of 4′33″.

The 'point' was to hear the environment around us, and force us to be quiet to listen and concentrate and ambient sounds. I'm not convinced that I should call that 'art', but it gives me tiny, teen-sy, smidgen of respect for it, where I had none before reading that a few years back.

I don't like most modern art, even to the point of reviling it, because it seems like they are trying to scam me, and that's insulting. We went through a temporary modern art exhibit at the Art Institute of Chicago (a wonderful place) a few years back, and one of the pieces of 'art' was some cardboard boxes stacked, liked you'd find in my attic. Give me a break. Another was a small room with several videos looping, one was a clown on a toilet, ripping pages out of a book, and laughing like a mad man. I don't even want to know.

But another, was hard to call 'art' but it made a connection and made me smile and feel good, but still had me kind of shrugging my shoulders at the same time, like 'huh?'. It was a collection of old post cards and photos with handwritten notes on the back, turned so you only saw one side. So you'd see this note on the back of a snapshot "Me and Sis laughing it up with Uncle Billy at the Lake", or something. Hard to explain why these were entertaining, but it just sort of was like holding up a mirror to every day experiences and memories, and with some of it missing, you had to fill in with your imagination. You just wanted to see what Sis and Uncle Billy were up to! OK, I (just me personally) am not going to call it art, but I thought it was clever, and entertaining. I don't care where we draw (no pun intended) the line.

 

[NTL2009]

...
Music is only music when it is heard, sung, or played. When in written form, it is just a transcription.

So many viewpoints in this thread, but I think I can even disagree with that statement (mostly for the 'fun' of it)!

I'm not a very capable musician, I don't have a very developed ear, but for some fairly simple written music, I can read the transcription and experience the music in my head. It is music. But it can't be 'heard', there are no sound waves produced. I'm not singing it or playing it. I'm only experiencing it.

If you want to say I 'hear' it in my head, OK. But that doesn't fit a physical model of 'hearing' - that requires sound waves and ear/nerves/brain to perceive it.

 

[NTL2009]

Another thought on all the 'art' stuff. When I see Picasso's cubism, I just shake my head. What's the point? Some lady's(?) head, with eyes, and nose out of place? So supposedly we are viewing from different angles at the same time? So, it just looks stupid to me.

But I love some his works from the Blue Period, and especially "The Old Guitarist" which is at the aforementioned Art Institute in Chicago. And it makes me wonder - is it me? Should I see something in his later cubism period? And I am moved by his abstractions in "Guernica". Though it looks like a jumbled mess, since it depicts a bombing, that makes a level of sense to me.

I know lots of people can't appreciate some jazz or classical, but I know enough to know there is something of value there (even the stuff I don't care for). So I wonder, am I missing something in modern art? I kind of don't think so. I just can't take it seriously. I can understand that someone might not 'get' John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme", but for me there is a clear distinction between the level of 'art' in " 4' 33" " and "A Love Supreme".

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

Finding out that Capt Beefheart is a musical genius. While most folks could not stand his art because of pre-programmed taste buds in their brain.

I kinda equate this thread to flavors of icecream, versions of linux, type of motorcycle, bicycle, or car. Druthers.

Me? I can listen to Taureg Nomad desert muscians. Rock and Roll. Rap. Country. Bluegrass. Big Band. Classical. Opera. You name it. I play it in my motorcycle shop to make the work go easier and faster. It does something to my body to calm tension and get into a flow. My inner emotions that day will determine the play list. I keep a 200 watt per channel Linux streaming computer with a ton of .pls and .mtu files on hand that hook up to worldwide streaming radio stations. Here is a example

http://www.radionovak.com/

But then. I don't over think these things.
You can guess, I guess, my vote goes on the last choice under " Heavy Metal "

May I ask why you do not like Heavy Metal? You like so many other types of music. Is there a particular Heavy Metal band in particular that you do not like? Just curious, not arguing at all! :)

 

[Asymptotic]

Finding out that Capt Beefheart is a musical genius. While most folks could not stand his art because of pre-programmed taste buds in their brain.

When I was fifteen two of us walked from band practice into town proper, and bought the only Beefheart album on the House of Wax's shelves - "Trout Mask Replica". We were a cover band playing The Beatles, Doobie Brothers, Chicago, Lynyrd Skynyrd and other staples of that time, and after I'd gone home and put it on the turntable my first thought was, "Fourteen-ninety-five blown to hell!", and then shoved it into the record cabinet.

Fast-forward to a fall day spent between writing an English 101 composition and unjamming keys in our cranky old Royal typewriter, hard up for something new to listen to in the background, and giving Trout Mask another chance. For the first few passes through the record changer it remained caca cacophonous, but after several more my feet had fallen into tapping, and head bopping.

It just took me a while to find the groove.

 

[DennisN]

Zero votes so far for classical, romantic and rock and roll, so here's music for you all :

Electric Light Orchestra - Roll Over Beethoven (Live 1976)


Chuck Berry - Roll Over Beethoven
(which actually is one of the first rock and roll songs ever done)

 

[symbolipoint]

That starts at 8 beats per measure with a definite long rhythm but later it all changes. I stopped analyzing after one minute. (Refering to the captain beefhart)

 

[Ucha]

Appreciate the last option, I think all music has something of value

 

[pinball1970]

Even hip-hop can be fantastic if you know who to listen to

In the words of Freddie Mercury from Bohemian rhapsody, "No no no no no no no."

 

[pinball1970]

Is RAP the same as hip hop? Not sure, they are guys with no musical ability talking over some beat thing/ sample- ZERO to do with creative original music

A popular drum sample is when the Levee breaks (john Bonham Led Zep) its not surprising really, he used a 26 inch Ludwig bass drum and experimented with different sounds on his snare and got that sound purportedly by setting his drums up on a spiral stair case. He had power, energy, creativity, technique, knowledge and above all bags of TALENT.

 

[DennisN]

No music should be banned. Even hip-hop can be fantastic if you know who to listen to. Anything mainstream is total garbage. But there are plenty of rappers that are really poets.

Currently Hip-hop has 13 votes, Anything Lip-Synched has 9 votes and Atonal 8 votes.
I am not a big fan of hip-hop, and I seldom listen to it, but I think there are some very good hip-hop songs, e.g. from the early 80s, so I feel very prompted to post a couple of good ones. And I know some very annoying atonal/contemporary pieces, so I will try to find some of those too...

 

[DennisN]

Some hip-hop I like:

Grandmaster Flash: The Message
- early influential hip-hop from 1982


Beastie Boys - Sabotage (Live on David Letterman, 1994)
(edit: though they are more a crossover between rap and rock)
- darn, this is so intense and "in your face", one chord only and I remember being blown away by it when it was released, I've always loved that song...


Eminem - Lose Yourself
- I think this is a very suggestive track

 

[symbolipoint]

Is RAP the same as hip hop? Not sure, they are guys with no musical ability talking over some beat thing/ sample- ZERO to do with creative original music

A popular drum sample is when the Levee breaks (john Bonham Led Zep) its not surprising really, he used a 26 inch Ludwig bass drum and experimented with different sounds on his snare and got that sound purportedly by setting his drums up on a spiral stair case. He had power, energy, creativity, technique, knowledge and above all bags of TALENT.

Currently Hip-hop has 13 votes, Anything Lip-Synched has 9 votes and Atonal 8 votes.
I am not a big fan of hip-hop, and I seldom listen to it, but I think there are some very good hip-hop songs, e.g. from the early 80s, so I feel very prompted to post a couple of good ones. And I know some very annoying atonal/contemporary pieces, so I will try to find some of those too...

One should distinguish between art which the artists intend to be music and performance art which the artists do not intended to be music.

You can try to decide for yourself: Is "Random Drug Testing", by Cub Koda, music or not? If not, then does it really need to be?

 

[DennisN]

You can try to decide for yourself: Is "Random Drug Testing", by Cub Koda, music or not?

I'd say a definitive yes, that's music.

 

[symbolipoint]

I'd say a definitive yes, that's music.

I can understand that. I said maybe it might not be "music", since the melody and use of chording for harmony was so minimal; but the piece does have some. The piece was done mostly in the style of a field holler and used no constructed instruments of any kind; but just relies mostly on poetry and rhythm (and percussion of clapping).

 

[DennisN]

"The Most Unwanted Song" is a novelty song created by artists Komar and Melamid and composer Dave Soldier in 1997.

Darn it, that is SO funny, thanks for posting! I'm going to use that song to terrorize my friends.

 

[pinball1970]

Some hip-hop I like:Eminem - Lose Yourself
- I think this is a very suggestive track

Eminem is very talented, a poet, social commentator, gets to heart of the matter. Brilliant. Also what he does rhythmically with words and phrases to fit the timings is amazing. Words that should not rhyme do, the ends of one word with the beginning of another to form a unique phonetic is also very creative to make these unusual rhymes all fit together.

Its genius.

Having said that I still think RAP is garbage, I hate it.

...besides Eminem.

 

[pinball1970]

Darn it, that is SO funny, thanks for posting! I'm going to use that song to terrorize my friends.

“Whats a matter you (HEY)” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFacWGBJ_cs was a track that made me run out of the room in despair.

Also “my ding aling” Chuck Berry and the whining, “There’s no one quite like Grandma” & “Grandma we love you” By the same awful school choir.
Its particularly annoying that “Blah …Grandma” kept John Lennon at number in December 1980.
Having said that the Bonzo dog Do da band’s, “Im the urban spaceman baby,” is brilliant, (Monty Python’s Neil Innes) as is “they’re coming to take me away” (ha ha)I think the worst music around at the moment (besides RAP) is that awful synth thing they keep overlaying on the vocal in pop songs, what the hell is that!?
Boring uncreative formulaic predictable production and tune PLUS this stupid synthy robotic vocal every other phrase.Stevie Wonder did this in the 1970s with his keyboard somehow sampling his voice and using that timbre to go through the keys- very clever BUT also very gimmicky gadgetry so I think he used it once.
In concert in 2008 he used it for PART of one song, once because he is Stevie Wonder a legend and he can do what he wants, he did it first.

Now it’s being used in everything, I HATE it.

 

[DennisN]

I think the worst music around at the moment (besides RAP) is that awful synth thing they keep overlaying on the vocal in pop songs, what the hell is that!? Boring uncreative formulaic predictable production and tune PLUS this stupid synthy robotic vocal every other phrase.

If I interpret what you mean correctly, the truth is actually even worse - it is an artifact of autotuning (computer aided tuning):

Now it’s being used in everything, I HATE it.

I agree, I am also sick and annoyed of hearing it.

 

[BWV]

Here is someone that could have used autotune



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins
Florence Foster Jenkins (born Narcissa Florence Foster; July 19, 1868 – November 26, 1944) was an American socialite and amateur soprano who was known and mocked for her flamboyant performance costumes and notably poor singing ability. The historian Stephen Pile ranked her "the world's worst opera singer". "No one, before or since," he wrote, "has succeeded in liberating themselves quite so completely from the shackles of musical notation."[1]

Despite (or perhaps because of) her technical incompetence, she became a prominent musical cult figure in New York City during the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s. Cole Porter, Gian Carlo Menotti, Lily Pons, Sir Thomas Beecham, and other celebrities were fans.[2][3] Enrico Caruso is said to have "regarded her with affection and respect".[4] The poet William Meredith wrote that what Jenkins provided "... was never exactly an aesthetic experience, or only to the degree that an early Christian among the lions provided aesthetic experience; it was chiefly immolatory, and Madame Jenkins was always eaten, in the end."[5]

 

[BWV]

As a classical music geek, there is nothing I hate worse than cheesy pop lite-classical crap like


or

 

[BWV]

Compare Clayderman's butchery to the same piece played by a master:



or

 

[OCR]

Here is someone that could have used autotune

Lol... .

 

[DennisN]

As a classical music geek, there is nothing I hate worse than cheesy pop lite-classical crap like

I agree, those "interpretations" are quite annoying.

Compare Clayderman's butchery to the same piece played by a master

The cheesy classical popversion is like pouring sugar all over a fantastic, expensive meal and then eating it with plastic cutlery.

 

[DennisN]

“Whats a matter you (HEY)” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFacWGBJ_cs was a track that made me run out of the room in despair.

Wow, I've forgot that song, but when I heard it I definitely remembered it. It's not in any of my playlists .

 

[Asymptotic]

Here is someone that could have used autotune



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins
Florence Foster Jenkins (born Narcissa Florence Foster; July 19, 1868 – November 26, 1944) was an American socialite and amateur soprano who was known and mocked for her flamboyant performance costumes and notably poor singing ability. The historian Stephen Pile ranked her "the world's worst opera singer". "No one, before or since," he wrote, "has succeeded in liberating themselves quite so completely from the shackles of musical notation."[1]

Despite (or perhaps because of) her technical incompetence, she became a prominent musical cult figure in New York City during the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s. Cole Porter, Gian Carlo Menotti, Lily Pons, Sir Thomas Beecham, and other celebrities were fans.[2][3] Enrico Caruso is said to have "regarded her with affection and respect".[4] The poet William Meredith wrote that what Jenkins provided "... was never exactly an aesthetic experience, or only to the degree that an early Christian among the lions provided aesthetic experience; it was chiefly immolatory, and Madame Jenkins was always eaten, in the end."[5]

Flo Fo puts me in mind of The Shaggs.



Bringing Cub Koda again into the mix, his take was, "There's an innocence to these songs and their performances that's both charming and unsettling. Hacked-at drumbeats, whacked-around chords, songs that seem to have little or no meter to them ... being played on out-of-tune, pawn-shop-quality guitars all converge, creating dissonance and beauty, chaos and tranquility, causing any listener coming to this music to rearrange any pre-existing notions about the relationships between talent, originality, and ability. There is no album you might own that sounds remotely like this one."

 

[symbolipoint]

Flo Fo puts me in mind of The Shaggs.



Bringing Cub Koda again into the mix, his take was, "There's an innocence to these songs and their performances that's both charming and unsettling. Hacked-at drumbeats, whacked-around chords, songs that seem to have little or no meter to them ... being played on out-of-tune, pawn-shop-quality guitars all converge, creating dissonance and beauty, chaos and tranquility, causing any listener coming to this music to rearrange any pre-existing notions about the relationships between talent, originality, and ability. There is no album you might own that sounds remotely like this one."

Sometimes, certain people are expecting performance art which comes primarily in the form of sound, to BE music, but that art may have been formed in such a way to INCLUDE music, but also parts which are NOT music but to fit around in between the music. There are a few other examples of this in the works of Brownsville Station, and of Houserockers (both groups of Cub Koda).

 

[BillTre]

Sometimes, certain people are expecting performance art which comes primarily in the form of sound, to BE music, but that art may have been formed in such a way to INCLUDE music, but also parts which are NOT music but to fit around in between the music.

This reminds me of some of the "music" used in movies.
For example, the original Blade Runner movie used music and sounds mixed together in support of of scenes (and in time with the music) where it might be difficult to decide which sound were Vangelis music or just ambient sounds.

 

[BWV]

what is the difference between 'sound' and 'music'?

 

[symbolipoint]

what is the difference between 'sound' and 'music'?

Too obvious

 

[BWV]

No, It’ not obvious at all

 

[symbolipoint]

BWV,
I just went through that link to JOHN CAGE: Imaginary Landscape No.4 ( but did not yet play the other link video). Much as I said previously, "Too obvious"; You can decide if you found any music in the Imaginary Landscape video or not. To ME, it contained none of any music. Maybe another more knowledgeable forum member having played that video could convince us otherwise.

 

[BWV]

You say its "too obvious" -which just means you operate on a definition of music that you cannot articulate, kind of like the "porn - I can't define it but know it when I see it" quip.

 

[symbolipoint]

You say its "too obvious" -which just means you operate on a definition of music that you cannot articulate, kind of like the "porn - I can't define it but know it when I see it" quip.

What is music is generally easy enough to recognize. It may depend on culture, but I assume not. I am expecting the more truly knowledgeable musically educated members to respond to this.

I can give this comment, since I just now did listen to that metronomes video. THAT was not music. Some interesting things occurred at 3:50, 5:00, and 5:48; but that video contained no music at all. Yes, I should say, one knows that something is music when he hears it. Trouble is, something may be music to one person but be NOT music to another person.

 

[BWV]

But if Gyorgy Ligeti, one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century, thought his metronome piece was music, who is in a position to argue?

Is this music?

 

[DennisN]

Is this music?

Sounds a bit like my vacuum cleaner. But I prefer my vacuum cleaner.

 

[symbolipoint]

...
Is this music?

Yes, okay; it is music. Strange music but music.

 

[DennisN]

Ok, so we have now a couple of fine examples of very weird, and fun, music in this thread, so I will contribute with this piece:

Symphony No. 9 by Beethoven stretched out to 24 hours.

Performed by the New York Philharmonic
Conducted by Leonard Bernstein
Original length: 15 minutes, 25 seconds

I used the Paulstretch effect in Audacity and stretched this by a factor of 21. I tried to get this pretty close to Leif Inge's Nine Beet Stretch length (which inspired this project and channel), and the length of the whole symphony came out to 24 hours, 35 minutes, and 43 seconds, with a stretch factor of 21 the way through, so this first movement is at the rate of the whole symphony being roughly a day long.

Part 1 (5 hours, 25 minutes, 12 seconds) :


All parts are here:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Beethoven+-+Symphony+#9+——+TIME-STRETCHED

 

[symbolipoint]

At 3:00 minute on the video still no sound. I lost patience.

 

[BillTre]

The Sound of Silence.


Sorry. Too hard to resist.

 

[pinball1970]

I read many threads on here but I only post on the music threads...on physics forums. That says a lot about my understanding of science.

Having said and avoiding the, "what is music question" I would like to bring this very interesting thread back on topic.

I detest punk. I hated it when it came out I hated all the players, the sound, the image, all the followers, the clothes, the media coverage and ridiculous interviews.

Still hate it.

 

[pinball1970]

what is the difference between 'sound' and 'music'?

Contradicting myself I am going to have a stab at this because I have liked some of your other music posts.

Music are the notes, sound is the notes plus the timbre that accompanies the notes and the reason why an upright piano middle C, sounds different to an upright playing the same note.

I like how the great musician vocalist and philosopher Ian Fraser Kilmister answered the question, "what is music?" He answered, "Noise."

 

[pinball1970]

A quick look at the survey and have a few things to ask
Renaissance polyphony has no down votes because I don't think anyone knows what it is. (including me)
I am very disappointed that 16% have voted for heavy metal. This is a very broad term that covers a host of different bands and styles.
Deep purple could be called the first "heavy metal" band at a push or you could say metal started post purple /Zep in 1980
UFO Saxon Iron Maiden Motor head Kiss so why the down votes? Zero in there?

 

[stevendaryl]

I read many threads on here but I only post on the music threads...on physics forums. That says a lot about my understanding of science.

Having said and avoiding the, "what is music question" I would like to bring this very interesting thread back on topic.

I detest punk. I hated it when it came out I hated all the players, the sound, the image, all the followers, the clothes, the media coverage and ridiculous interviews.

Still hate it.

Me too, as a general rule. But I think it was an important movement in music. Some punk bands had songs that were accessible to non-punk fans. For example, The Clash, The Ramones, Green Day (they're sort of punk). Also, punk had a big influence on new wave groups, including Blondie, Talking Heads, The Cure, etc.

A lot of iconoclastic movements in music and art aren't appreciated in the early days except by aficionados, but then those aficionados go on to adapt the movements in more accessible ways, until it becomes the new mainstream, and you need another iconoclastic movement to rebel against it.

 

[DennisN]

Regarding punk I think I only really like Iggy Pop, if I remember correctly.
I think Ramones are pretty fun, but I never enjoyed Clash. I think Green Day are ok but not more than that. All subjective, of course .

I really like these two songs with Iggy Pop:



Edit: Oh, shame on me, I forgot "The Passenger", which I think is a really good song.

 

[BillTre]

Patti Smith is often called a punk artist (when she first became known).
I think she is great, but I not sure everyone would call her punk.


I tend to think of these things (opinions on music and such) in more of a positive sense rather than negative.
Take what appeals to you. Ignore the rest.

 

[symbolipoint]

...Music are the notes, sound is the notes plus the timbre that accompanies the notes and the reason why an upright piano middle C, sounds different to an upright playing the same note.
...

You must have been trying to say something different there. Maybe one of the "upright" was supposed to be something else. If you mean that one upright piano has something different in sound quality from another upright piano, then I understand (and maybe so do other people).

 

[Asymptotic]

A lot of iconoclastic movements in music and art aren't appreciated in the early days except by aficionados, but then those aficionados go on to adapt the movements in more accessible ways, until it becomes the new mainstream, and you need another iconoclastic movement to rebel against it.

Indeed!

And it's a fun exercise to pick a point in the musicological taxonomy, and explore from whence it came, and to where it led. Pete Townsend influenced me, and he in turn picked up the guitar after hearing Link Wray's Rumble. Go to 1971's Scorpio Woman from the album "Mordicai Jones", and Wray is welding together a strange alloy of hillbilly blues with a Hendrixian twist. Slide back to an early '60's track that wasn't contemporaneously released (Street Fighter, on the 1997 album, "Missing Links, Vol. 4") and you'll hear one of the first instances of controlled guitar feedback.

Wray recorded a version of Rawhide, which had been popularized by Frankie Laine, and The Blues Brothers make their own at Bob's Country Bunker. One of Mike Nesmith's first published songs was Pretty Little Princess, recorded by Frankie Laine, and a step along the road to The Monkees, and later to the beginnings of country rock with the First National Bank and Nesmith's early solo albums.

Roll With The Flow is from "And The Hits Just Keep on Coming" ; an entire album performed solely by Nesmith and pedal steel player Red Rhodes. I'd assumed it was a synth, but the iconic line in the chorus of Seals & Croft's Summer Breeze is actually played by Red. Go sideways, and learn that a pedal steel in the hands and feet of a master isn't relegated exclusively to the C&W genre. Does Lunar Nova fall into the bin marked 'jazz', is it 'prog rock', or something else?