News Who is responsible for the Australian embassy bombing in Jakarta?

[JohnDubYa]

Geniere really goes out on a limb. Nostradamus lives!

 

[Gokul43201]

I looked through all those links and still can't find where it says that Islamic terrorists are a minority among the terror community.

 

[Adam]

I coulen't be bothered searching for numbers now. However, I recall a while ago I searched for numbers on christian whackos killing their kids in "exorcisms" in the USA, and it happens on average about once per fortnight.

Anyone got any numbers handy regarding christian pro-life nutters murdering doctors?

 

[studentx]

I coulen't be bothered searching for numbers now. However, I recall a while ago I searched for numbers on christian whackos killing their kids in "exorcisms" in the USA, and it happens on average about once per fortnight.

Anyone got any numbers handy regarding christian pro-life nutters murdering doctors?

Adam, its time to embrace the truth, this is getting us nowhere. We all know it has been mostly, almost exclusively extremist muslims comitting international terror attacks with the purpose of collapsing the non muslim world and the increase in attacks the last few years are NOT not a problem. You don't like the truth, neither do i, but lying to muslims and telling them evrything is fine is not how you should treat your equals.

 

[Adam]

Now, I'll be careful to avoid an ad hominem here. I won't say anything about a person. However, some of the assertions and ridiculous statements around here make me think that we really do need a lifeguard or two around the gene pool. The sheer stupidity involved in some of the posts I read here is so monomentally ludicrous that I'm left questioning how the authors can possibly even type on a computer. Actually, I'm surprised they can feed themselves and survive long enough to find a computer.

Now, to the links I did not supply earlier, as I was waiting for my dinner to finish cooking...

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/e/ex/exorcism.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/20/national/main594278.shtml
http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/death-exorcism.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3179789.stm
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/cults/victims_of_religion.htm
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=exorcism+child+killed&btnG=Search&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off

I'll go through here later for more.

 

[Hurkyl]

We all know

I don't; I haven't seen figures that support this.

 

[Gokul43201]

From the US State Dept. : http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2004/05/sec-040521-usia01.htm

Terrorist Exclusion List Designees (alphabetical listing)

-- Afghan Support Committee (a.k.a. Ahya ul Turas)

-- Al Taqwa Trade, Property and Industry Company Ltd. (f.k.a. Himmat Establishment)

-- Al-Hamati Sweets Bakeries

-- Al-Ittihad al-Islami (AIAI)

-- Al-Ma unah

-- Al-Nur Honey Center

-- Al-Rashid Trust

-- Al-Shifa Honey Press for Industry and Commerce

-- Al-Wafa al-Igatha al-Islamia

-- Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)

-- Anarchist Faction for Overthrow

-- Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)

-- Asbat al-Ansar

-- Babbar Khalsa International

-- Bank Al Taqwa Ltd.

-- Black Star

-- Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)

-- Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (a.k.a. Continuity Army Council)

-- Darkazanli Company

-- Dhamat Houmet Daawa Salafia

-- Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement

-- First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO)

-- Harakat ul Jihad i Islami (HUJI)

-- International Sikh Youth Federation

-- Islamic Army of Aden

-- Islamic Renewal and Reform Organization

-- Jamiat al-Ta awun al-Islamiyya

-- Jamiat ul-Mujahideen (JUM)

-- Japanese Red Army (JRA)

-- Jaysh-e-Mohammed

-- Jayshullah

-- Jerusalem Warriors

-- Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LET) (a.k.a. Army of the Righteous)

-- Libyan Islamic Fighting Group

-- Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)

-- Makhtab al-Khidmat

-- Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group

-- Nada Management Organization (f.k.a. Al Taqwa Management Organization SA)

-- New People's Army (NPA)

-- Orange Volunteers (OV)

-- People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)

-- Red Brigades-Combatant Communist Party (BR-PCC)

-- Red Hand Defenders (RHD)

-- Revival of Islamic Heritage Society (Pakistan and Afghanistan offices -- Kuwait office not designated)

-- Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus

-- Revolutionary United Front (RUF)

-- Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

-- The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF)

-- The Islamic International Brigade

-- The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)

-- The Pentagon Gang

-- The Riyadus-Salikhin Reconnaissance and Sabotage Battalion of Chechen Martyrs

-- The Special Purpose Islamic Regiment

-- Tunisian Combat Group (a.k.a. Jama a Combattante Tunisien)

-- Turkish Hizballah

-- Ulster Defense Association (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters)

-- Ummah Tameer E-Nau (UTN)

-- Youssef M. Nada & Co. Gesellschaft M.B.H.

Summary : A little more than 60% are Islamic groups. Whenever the name was not suggestive of religious orientation, I've assumed non-Islamic.

 

[studentx]

Have you seen the news lately? Beslan , two passenger jets, subway suicidebomber, Jakarta carbomb. And that's just the past few weeks, and just russia.

 

[Hurkyl]

Have you seen the news lately? Beslan , two passenger jets, subway suicidebomber, Jakarta carbomb. And that's just the past few weeks, and just russia.

Have you heard about selective reporting, selective memory, and forgetfulness?

If your assertion was so obvious, it should be easy to drum up figures.

 

[Adam]

1) Define the period of time over which you are asserting that Islam is behind the greater mount of wars and terrorism and such.

2) Add up the numbers.

3) Show us.

Hint: For your own benefit, start after about 1950.

 

[Gokul43201]

wars and terrorism and such.

Too much fudge factor there. I thought this was strictly about terrorism. Whether war is justified or not is debatable.

 

[studentx]

From the US State Dept. : http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2004/05/sec-040521-usia01.htm

Terrorist Exclusion List Designees (alphabetical listing)

-- Afghan Support Committee (a.k.a. Ahya ul Turas)

-- Al Taqwa Trade, Property and Industry Company Ltd. (f.k.a. Himmat Establishment)

-- Al-Hamati Sweets Bakeries

-- Al-Ittihad al-Islami (AIAI)

-- Al-Ma unah

-- Al-Nur Honey Center

-- Al-Rashid Trust

-- Al-Shifa Honey Press for Industry and Commerce

-- Al-Wafa al-Igatha al-Islamia

-- Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)

-- Anarchist Faction for Overthrow

-- Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)

-- Asbat al-Ansar

-- Babbar Khalsa International

-- Bank Al Taqwa Ltd.

-- Black Star

-- Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)

-- Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (a.k.a. Continuity Army Council)

-- Darkazanli Company

-- Dhamat Houmet Daawa Salafia

-- Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement

-- First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO)

-- Harakat ul Jihad i Islami (HUJI)

-- International Sikh Youth Federation

-- Islamic Army of Aden

-- Islamic Renewal and Reform Organization

-- Jamiat al-Ta awun al-Islamiyya

-- Jamiat ul-Mujahideen (JUM)

-- Japanese Red Army (JRA)

-- Jaysh-e-Mohammed

-- Jayshullah

-- Jerusalem Warriors

-- Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LET) (a.k.a. Army of the Righteous)

-- Libyan Islamic Fighting Group

-- Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)

-- Makhtab al-Khidmat

-- Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group

-- Nada Management Organization (f.k.a. Al Taqwa Management Organization SA)

-- New People's Army (NPA)

-- Orange Volunteers (OV)

-- People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)

-- Red Brigades-Combatant Communist Party (BR-PCC)

-- Red Hand Defenders (RHD)

-- Revival of Islamic Heritage Society (Pakistan and Afghanistan offices -- Kuwait office not designated)

-- Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus

-- Revolutionary United Front (RUF)

-- Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

-- The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF)

-- The Islamic International Brigade

-- The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)

-- The Pentagon Gang

-- The Riyadus-Salikhin Reconnaissance and Sabotage Battalion of Chechen Martyrs

-- The Special Purpose Islamic Regiment

-- Tunisian Combat Group (a.k.a. Jama a Combattante Tunisien)

-- Turkish Hizballah

-- Ulster Defense Association (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters)

-- Ummah Tameer E-Nau (UTN)

-- Youssef M. Nada & Co. Gesellschaft M.B.H.

Summary : A little more than 60% are Islamic groups. Whenever the name was not suggestive of religious orientation, I've assumed non-Islamic.

Did you miss this?

 

[Adam]

You mean The Pentagon Gang?

 

[Gokul43201]

You mean The Pentagon Gang?

Pentagon Gang - a Filipino terrorist group that broke away from the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in 2001 in order to continue terrorism and kidnapping and extortion.

 

[Hurkyl]

Did you miss this?

First off, I don't suppose you could, y'know, sort them into Islamic terrorist groups and non-Islamic terrorist groups?


Secondly, why is it reasonable to think this is a complete list?


Thirdly, I thought your claim was "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam", not "2/3 of terrorist groups are Islamic".


Fourthly, what bearing does "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam" on "Islam is the problem"?

 

[Adam]

The other Pentagon Gang. :P

 

[Gokul43201]

First off, I don't suppose you could, y'know, sort them into Islamic terrorist groups and non-Islamic terrorist groups?

Probably not. But this surely is suggestive.

Secondly, why is it reasonable to think this is a complete list?

Maybe not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that the distribution is representative of any 'complete list'.

Thirdly, I thought your claim was "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam", not "2/3 of terrorist groups are Islamic".

I guess that was the original claim. But it is also one that is a little hard to provide quantitative proof of. The provided list supports that claim, but does not prove it. Anyway, I think the fraction "that involved Islam" would be close to the fraction "that are Islamic". The ideology of most Islamic groups is based on (their interpretation of) Islam.

On the other hand, training and recruiting infrastructure has been established so well by Islamic groups that many other groups use/borrow from this infrastructure. So there is greater influence than just incidents that involve Islam.

Fourthly, what bearing does "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam" on "Islam is the problem"?

When two things have a large correlation coefficient, that is cause to suspect that one has a bearing on the other.

(I'm not claiming that Islam is the problem. But surely, it is being interpreted/twisted in a manner that lends to terror recruitment. And it presumably doesn't have strong enough things to say against terror, or more religious groups would be publicly denouncing these acts.)

 

[Hurkyl]

Probably not. But this surely is suggestive.

I asked becuase, presumably, studentx thinks there are a good number of them (60%) for which it is obvious that they are Islamic. Since I don't share his alledged ability to pick out Islamic terrorist groups by their name, I was hoping he could do it for me.

Maybe not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that the distribution is representative of any 'complete list'.

There are various reasons to think it may not be representative. This list would presumably exclude any local terrorist group, and be less likely to include groups based in more friendly nations. Presumably, the list would also be heavily biased to contain organizations likely to carry out attacks against the USA. The list would also be more likely to include groups that are openly terrorist.

Anyway, I think the fraction "that involved Islam" would be close to the fraction "that are Islamic".

I don't think there's a strong corrolation; I would expect some terrorist groups to be far more active than other groups, and since we're working with a fairly small sample space, there isn't a strong probability that the proportion of Islamic terrorist activities would be near equal to the proportion of Islamic terrorist groups.

When two things have a large correlation coefficient, that is cause to suspect that one has a bearing on the other.

I mentioned in a previous post how, even if correct, that this 2/3 figure should actually be interpreted as a normal value as opposed to an extreme. If 2/3 of conflicts involve Islam, then I would expect 1/3 of aggression to be Islamic. With one quarter of the world's population being Islamic, and the relative impreciseness of this entire analysis, I don't find the number to be significant at all.

 

[Gokul43201]

I asked becuase, presumably, studentx thinks there are a good number of them (60%) for which it is obvious that they are Islamic. Since I don't share his alledged ability to pick out Islamic terrorist groups by their name, I was hoping he could do it for me.

Actually, I made that claim, not Studentx. So here's my explanation.

If the name includes 'Islamic' or 'Islam' or 'Islamiyah', then I consider the group Islamic. Likewise for words like 'Mujahideen', 'Mujahid" , 'Jaysh', 'Jihad', etc. I also know that LeT, al-Ansar, Salafiyah, Hizballah and the Chechen Martyrs are all Islamic groups. These make up about 50%. The remaining 13% or so are Arabic names that I guessed had a high likelyhood of being Islamic. There are a couple (Darkazanli and Pentagon Gang, maybe more) of groups that are Islamic, but do not have Arabic names, and I did not count these in my estimate.

 

[studentx]

You forgot ''ummah" (the muslim world). It misses Al Quaeda tho.
Now, can anyone name a terrorist attack in this year, from atheists, christians, hindus, buddists or perhaps shaolin monks?

 

[Gokul43201]

Hmmm, I (incorrectly, it seems) guessed that Ummah was some form of the Arabic word umm meaning 'mother'. I know this because Saddam Hussein supposedly referred to the first Gulf War as umm al maarek, "the mother of all battles".

 

[Adam]

You forgot ''ummah" (the muslim world). It misses Al Quaeda tho.
Now, can anyone name a terrorist attack in this year, from atheists, christians, hindus, buddists or perhaps shaolin monks?

Basque separatists in Spain. Christians in Sudan. Christians in the USA. Drug monkeys all over Central America and South America. Two idiots in Sydney who painted the Opera House.

Really, a detailed list is going to take a very long time.

 

[studentx]

Basque separatists in Spain. Christians in Sudan. Christians in the USA. Drug monkeys all over Central America and South America. Two idiots in Sydney who painted the Opera House.

Really, a detailed list is going to take a very long time.

Even tho you didnt answer my question, ill continue. Let's suppose for one second, that all these non-muslim terrorists share one common denominator; They are all drug users, and they all chant "drugs are great" when comitting their terrorist attacks.
Isnt it stupendously foolish to turn a blind eye to this common denominator?

 

[Adam]

The problem you're missing is this: there isn't such a common factor. They are not all, as you suggest, Muslims.

 

[studentx]

The problem you're missing is this: there isn't such a common factor. They are not all, as you suggest, Muslims.

I wasnt suggesting all terrorists are muslims. I suggest you reread my last question

 

[Adam]

Let me quote you:

Islam is the problem, two thirds of the worlds conflicts involve Islam, and today it almost has a monopoly when it comes to terrorism.

 

[russ_watters]

I coulen't be bothered searching for numbers now. However, I recall a while ago I searched for numbers on christian whackos killing their kids in "exorcisms" in the USA, and it happens on average about once per fortnight.

edit: the goggle with one from this year was the first I'd ever heard of. In any case, that's not terrorism. Its not relevant to this discussion.

Anyone got any numbers handy regarding christian pro-life nutters murdering doctors?

AFAIK, its been several years since the last one.

Also, these are individuals, not organizations and. The closest thing we have to terrorist organizations in the US is a few radical environmentalist groups. Also, they are domestic only. Prior to 9/11, the worst domestic terrorist act (caveat: McVeigh would say he was fighting against the government) was the Oaklahoma City Federal Building bombing - politicaly motivated and having nothing to do with religion.

So then, we are still in agreement that its pretty rare?

 

[Adam]

How is it not terrorism, when people murder other people like that? And all of them are members of organisations which preach the stuff those people used as their justifications.

 

[russ_watters]

How is it not terrorism, when people murder other people like that? And all of them are members of organisations which preach the stuff those people used as their justifications.

Are you saying you consider all murder terrorism? You seem confused about just what "terrorism" is. Or is an excorsim terrorism because its an attempt to intimidate Satan?

 

[Adam]

What do you consider terrorism?

 

[russ_watters]

What do you consider terrorism?

You posted the definition in a new thread and I agree with it. Killing your own children accidentally in an exorcism certainly does not qualify.

So what do you consider terrorism.

 

[Adam]

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

Sure it qualifies.

 

[russ_watters]

Sure it qualifies.

Uh, where is the violence (and calculation) if the parents didn't intend to injure or kill the kid? Who are they trying to intimidate? What is the political/religous goal of the intimidation? No, Adam, you're mis-applying the definition pretty blatantly. You can't just chop out the parts of the definition that don't fit in order to apply it selectively - you change the whole meaning of the word.

 

[Adam]

Did you not read those things about the exorcisms? They beat, drown, strangle, stab, and do other things to the kids. How is that not violence?

The religious/idealogical goal is to rid the kid of demons, by death if necessary.

 

[studentx]

Let me quote you:

Well, where is the quote of me saying all terrorists are muslims?

 

[studentx]

Did you not read those things about the exorcisms? They beat, drown, strangle, stab, and do other things to the kids. How is that not violence?

The religious/idealogical goal is to rid the kid of demons, by death if necessary.

According to your definition of terrorism, the sharia law dictates that muslims need to terrorize adulterers and women that don't wear hijabs and countless others.
Which religion is behind the 10 largest terror attacks in recent history? I could probably ask you which one is behind the 50 largest attacks, and the answer would remain the same.

 

[Adam]

According to your definition of terrorism, the sharia law dictates that muslims need to terrorize adulterers and women that don't wear hijabs and countless others.

Shariah law is f***ing insane, and needs to be crushed.

Which religion is behind the 10 largest terror attacks in recent history? I could probably ask you which one is behind the 50 largest attacks, and the answer would remain the same.

Name your expanse of time for which you're asking.

 

[studentx]

Shariah law is f***ing insane, and needs to be crushed.

Sharia law is part of Islam.

Name your expanse of time for which you're asking.

How about the last 10yrs.

 

[Adam]

Sharia law is part of Islam.

That's like saying the death penalty in the USA is part of christianity.

Shariah is not part of the legal system in every predominantly Muslim country, nor is it the same in every such country.

How about the last 10yrs.

Last ten years:

• Twin Towers in New York, 2001: nearly 3,000 dead. Perpetrators: Muslims.
• Invasion of Iraq, 2003: 10,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Christians.
• Rwanda: 800,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Christians.
• Breakup of Yugoslavia: 300,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Christians.
• Oklahoma city bombing: 168 dead. Perpetrators: Christians.
• Various US embassies in Africa: 224 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims. (Note that this is actually several events.)
• Indonesian crisis, 1999: 200,000 displaced, unknown dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims.
• Bali nightclub bombing: 200 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims.
• Sudan: 30,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims, although conflict is based more on tribal affiliation than religion.
• Russian school, 2004: 326 dead. Perpetrators: Responsibility claimed by Chechen separatists.

Looks like Muslims are behind half, in this count. Perhaps you can find another list of people targeting civilians and come up with a different count.

Now, if you go by numbers of people killed, however, Christians are far in the lead for bodycount.

 

[Adam]

Don't you just love how certain users have turned this thread, too, into a "Muslims are bad, mmkay" thread?

 

[russ_watters]

Last ten years:

• [numbers added]
  1.
• Twin Towers in New York, 2001: nearly 3,000 dead. Perpetrators: Muslims.
  2.
• Invasion of Iraq, 2003: 10,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Christians.
  3.
• Rwanda: 800,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Christians.
  4.
• Breakup of Yugoslavia: 300,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Christians.
  5.
• Oklahoma city bombing: 168 dead. Perpetrators: Christians.
  6.
• Various US embassies in Africa: 224 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims. (Note that this is actually several events.)
  7.
• Indonesian crisis, 1999: 200,000 displaced, unknown dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims.
  8.
• Bali nightclub bombing: 200 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims.
  9.
• Sudan: 30,000 dead. Perpetrators: mostly Muslims, although conflict is based more on tribal affiliation than religion.
  10.
• Russian school, 2004: 326 dead. Perpetrators: Responsibility claimed by Chechen separatists.

Looks like Muslims are behind half, in this count. Perhaps you can find another list of people targeting civilians and come up with a different count.

Well, if you fix the factual errors in your list, it tells a different story:

#2 was a war, not terrorism.
#3 is genocide, not terrorism, and its tribal/ethnicly motivated - Christianity has no role.
#4 This is/was ethnicly based, not religious based, also not terrorism.
#5 This was political, not religious terrorism.
#7 Not terrorism, but there are plenty of islamic terrorists operating there - I'll throw you a bone on that one.
#9 Correct - not terrorism
#10 Chechen terrorists are muslim and religiously motivated.

So, from your list, that's 4 muslim terrorist acts, one domestic political terrorist act, and zero christian terrorist acts.

Don't you just love how certain users have turned this thread, too, into a "Muslims are bad, mmkay" thread?

That's not what we're saying at all.

 

[Adam]

Russ, when you attack civilians for some political, religious, or idealogical goal, that's terrorism.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Terrorism implies that the killing of civilians is used to extort political gains. The Genocide, for example, was not terrorism, because Hitler was not using the threat of killing Jews to extort political gains from his enemies. That doesn't lessen the evilness of his actions, but it does alter the categorization.

Civilians die in just about every war. Using your definition, every battle would be terrorist activity.

 

[Adam]

This is why I supplied definitions, once again.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=42966

 

[JohnDubYa]

Hmmm....

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, when you attack civilians for some political, religious, or idealogical goal, that's terrorism.

That's correct. I fixed your list accordingly. I knew you wouldn't mind.

 

[studentx]

That's like saying the death penalty in the USA is part of christianity.

Shariah is not part of the legal system in every predominantly Muslim country, nor is it the same in every such country.

Sharia IS part of Islam.

Don't you just love how certain users have turned this thread, too, into a "Muslims are bad, mmkay" thread?

Umm, youre the one saying that part of the Islamic religion needs to be crushed.

 

[The Green Giant]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Well if war and these terorists are so horrible, why do we not blame cars for anything. More people died in 2002 car accidents in the US than the number of people who died in Vietnam, both US and Other. Not to mention 17 million who were injured, and the 10 or so million seriously so.

So is a drunk driver a terrorist, because he kills, or atleast terrorizes people right?

 

[JohnDubYa]

No, for obvious reasons. Think about it.

 

[russ_watters]

So is a drunk driver a terrorist, because he kills, or atleast terrorizes people right?

A drunk driver (who kills somene) is a murderer, not a terrorist. Again, not all murder is terrorism.