Music Why are ABBA so popular?

[pinball1970]

Based on a post on another string this deserves one on its own. I have my own ideas, some are obvious, some less so.

So I will kick things off with.....they wrote great tunes. The hardest thing in the music world to do, anyone can write a tune, ok tune even the odd good one. To consistently write tunes that are great and translate down the decades is something different.

Just to give some balance, if you do not like the band or think they are overrated then I would be interested to tell you why you are wrong
hear your points on that.

 

[phinds]

they wrote great tunes

Yes, but that's hardly ALL they did. If they had written great tunes but been crappy singers do you think that would have become so popular. Some of us just LOVE harmony groups. The Ames Brothers, The Kingston Trio (yes, I'm dating myself with those and a few more ), The Everly Brothers, The Beach Boys, the Chad Mitchel Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, Simon and Garfunkel, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, The Mamas and the Papas, and on and on.

 

[DennisN]

So I will kick things off with.....they wrote great tunes. The hardest thing in the music world to do, anyone can write a tune, ok tune even the odd good one. To consistently write tunes that are great and translate down the decades is something different.

Well, @pinball1970 , you have already answered your own question of the thread.
What you say is the most important thing.

If I were to add something basic to what makes music not only popular, but also classics or even masterpieces, is that two things are needed, but in different priority:

1. Priority #1: Musical composition
   Why?
   
   Because no matter how hard you try, you won't make a timeless classic top notch song without a great composition. You can take a very talented performer, give him/her a mediocre song and he/she will not be able to make a classic masterpiece out of it.
   
   
2. Priority #2: You need a good delivery. But it's not as important as the composition.
   However, if you have a great composition and just an ok delivery, the song will still be good, but not great.
   
   But if you combine a great composition with a great delivery/performance you will propel the composition into a higher dimension. The dimension of the masterpieces.

Sidenote:

One thing I came to think about is that there was still a difference between the Beatles and ABBA, which partly explains why The Beatles was/is more successful and popular.

The similarity of the two groups was that they had two great composers in each band.
But ABBA did not reach the level of the Beatles, in my opinion.

None of the two male composers of ABBA had any successful solo career, and they weren't particularly good singers in my opinion, if I am being honest.

The Beatles were different:

Both Paul McCartney and John Lennon were so incredibly talented that they had no problem doing successful solo careers . And they were both very good singers.

I mean... I just say John Lennon (Happy Xmas, Working Class Hero, Cold Turkey etc) and Paul McCartney (Live and Let Die), simply amazing songs from their solo careers.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes, but that's hardly ALL they did. If they had written great tunes but been crappy singers do you think that would have become so popular?

Exactly. I'm only starting things off.

 

[Hornbein]

Based on a post on another string this deserves one on its own. I have my own ideas, some are obvious, some less so.

So I will kick things off with.....they wrote great tunes. The hardest thing in the music world to do, anyone can write a tune, ok tune even the odd good one. To consistently write tunes that are great and translate down the decades is something different.

Just to give some balance, if you do not like the band or think they are overrated then I would be interested to tell you why you are wrong
hear your points on that.

My experience with bands is that either the magic happens or it doesn't. It's 100% random (unpredictable). Jimmy Page said Led Zeppelin "wouldn't happen again in a thousand years." It was luck. David Gilmore said the same thing about Dark Side of the Moon. He figured it was about as good as their other albums and would sell about the same. Random.

Their harmony is magical and their songwriting is good, strong in melodies and chords. They were the first white band with two sexy women up front with (primitive) choreography and costumes. That's what the female side of Kpop is all about. So this caught on bigtime.

Mass popularity often ties in with mass movements (many examples). Many Europeans say it was the start of a European consciousness.

 

[Hornbein]

Anyone in popular music is going to fall short in comparision with The Beatles.

As to why one melody or set of chords is better than another is an as-yet-unsolved mystery.

 

[DennisN]

Paul McCartney (Live and Let Die), simply amazing songs from their solo careers.

A sidenote, if I may, regarding Live and Let Die...

I am so fascinated by this song not just because it's great (and it is a quite complicated composition, Paul McCartney mixes multiple elements in the same song: the verse (and bridge) is a beautiful ballad, the chorus is crazy rock (almost like hard rock) and then comes a dramatic film score type piece, and later a reggae piece.
In the same song!

And... he did it for a movie. Just like that, like it's nothing special.
It's almost unbelievable. And he composed it quite quickly .
And it's the best James Bond theme song, period (well, in my opinion at least ).

Here is the fun story of the song:

Critics BERATED This Solo Beatle's FIERCE 70s Rock Song...Became His Biggest Hit | Professor Of Rock

 

[DennisN]

The Mamas and the Papas

One of my alltime favorite songs is California Dreamin'. It is so good it is ridiculous .

The Mamas & The Papas - California Dreamin'

 

[pinball1970]

Waterloo 1973

The tune is pretty simple, not many notes but the way the bass does not change straight away then that E on a D just hits you.

D E/D A/C# G/B A

My, my, at Waterloo Napoleon did surrender

Bach used similar tricks all the time.

You might think so what? Any fool can stay on the bass while the chord changes and then before you know it you are on the third with a bit of manipulation

Yes you can but they seem to do it so it never seemed contrived, totally natural and it always catches your ear.

 

[Hornbein]

Waterloo 1973

The tune is pretty simple, not many notes but the way the bass changes straight away to that E on a D just hits you.

D E/D A/C# G/B A

My, my, at Waterloo Napoleon did surrender

Bach used similar tricks all the time.

You might think so what? Any fool can stay on the bass while the chord changes and then before you know it you are on the third with a bit of manipulation

Yes you can but they seem to do it so it never seemed contrived, totally natural and it always catches your ear.

They are good with notes in the bass other than roots. The master of that is Verdine White of Earth Wind and Fire. He once got away with a flat fifth in the bass. He plays the piano, which I believe is the secret weapon of the best bass players. You just can't learn that much about harmony playing bass only.



Checking out Dancing Queen the bass player has his strap going to the peghead. I've never seen anyone else do that. Some old Fender basses have strap buttons on the peghead, which I thought weird. It would make the neck flex so it seems unworkable, but he's doing it. Anyway, now that I listen to it closely the men's harmony adds a lot.

 

[DennisN]

Waterloo 1973

The tune is pretty simple, not many notes but the way the bass changes straight away to that E on a D just hits you.

D E/D A/C# G/B A

My, my, at Waterloo Napoleon did surrender

Bach used similar tricks all the time.

You might think so what? Any fool can stay on the bass while the chord changes and then before you know it you are on the third with a bit of manipulation

Yes you can but they seem to do it so it never seemed contrived, totally natural and it always catches your ear.

Haha, I must have heard that song at least a hundred times and I have never noticed it until you mentioned it. I had to go to youtube to listen to it again, and yes, you are right.

Thanks for that one! It's a trick I've never used myself, so I have to try it some time on the piano. Fun!

 

[pinball1970]

Haha, I must have heard that song at least a hundred times and I have never noticed it until you mentioned it. I had to go to youtube to listen to it again, and yes, you are right.

Thanks for that one! It's a trick I've never used myself, so I have to try it some time on the piano. Fun!

The Eagle is possibly my favourite but like the Beatles it changes.

They use that trick again on this pre chorus but this time we go from E to F# to G to A

on the bass tone tone tone- nothing special.

But this is over B7 so we get the 5th Em we have the third and finally we get the tonic on the A

So simple when someone has already written it but that simple vocal goes over top beautifully links into into the chorus which is typically ABBA anthemic

Em B7/F#

And I dream I'm an eagle

Em/G A

And I dream I can spread my wings

So many good bits to that song...

 

[DennisN]

So many good bits to that song...

I agree, it's masterful.

But I have to admit that you surprise me a bit here... how come a drummer has such a good ear for composition (e.g. you mention chords and different bass notes etc)?

Did you start music with another instrument than drums, I wonder?
Or is it something you've picked up along the way?

Or perhaps you have done some composing yourself?

Or is it the result of listening to/playing a lot of different music, perhaps?

 

[BWV]

Waterloo 1973

The tune is pretty simple, not many notes but the way the bass changes straight away to that E on a D just hits you.

D E/D A/C# G/B A

My, my, at Waterloo Napoleon did surrender

Bach used similar tricks all the time.

You might think so what? Any fool can stay on the bass while the chord changes and then before you know it you are on the third with a bit of manipulation

Yes you can but they seem to do it so it never seemed contrived, totally natural and it always catches your ear.

yes 4/2 to 6 (the E/D to A/C#) can be found all over baroque music

a deeper dive if anyone is interested from the best trad music theory channel on youtube:

 

[docnet]

I rediscovered them last eek and have been listening non-stop. Put one of their songs on a loop for 4 hours. Nice, cheerful, and upbeat music. Music transcends generations

 

[pinball1970]

yes 4/2 to 6 (the E/D to A/C#) can be found all over baroque music

a deeper dive if anyone is interested from the best trad music theory channel on youtube:

I tried but got a bit lost! I'll try again. Perhaps with a music dictionary

 

[pinball1970]

I agree, it's masterful.

But I have to admit that you surprise me a bit here... how come a drummer has such a good ear for composition (e.g. you mention chords and different bass notes etc)?

Did you start music with another instrument than drums, I wonder?
Or is it something you've picked up along the way?

Or perhaps you have done some composing yourself?

Or is it the result of listening to/playing a lot of different music, perhaps?

That is a nice compliment thanks!

So yes you are right on the other instrument and listening.

I learned guitar and piano in my teens but not formally, just hanging round with musicians ha ha! (drummer joke)

I was lucky in the era I grew up, the radio was on all the time and it was the late 60s early 70s so the best music ever.

Even films, TV programmes and adverts had great music.

My brain was being trained without even knowing it. Jazz, funk, rock, pop (great 1960s/70s pop)

ABBA was just part of it all and looking back, one of the best parts.

 

[pinball1970]

I agree, it's masterful.

But I have to admit that you surprise me a bit here... how come a drummer has such a good ear for composition (e.g. you mention chords and different bass notes etc)?

Did you start music with another instrument than drums, I wonder?
Or is it something you've picked up along the way?

Or perhaps you have done some composing yourself?

Or is it the result of listening to/playing a lot of different music, perhaps?

Just for some perspective, I started listening to @BWV video and just got lost real quick.

I have heard the terms, possibly with context and had things explained I do not have the classical theory training to listen and understand that.

 

[DennisN]

Just for some perspective, I started listening to @BWV video and just got lost real quick.

Me too.

 

[DennisN]

ABBA

the Beatles

Paul McCartney

And a quarter of the Beatles crossed paths with a quarter of ABBA, eventually...

Paul McCartney and Frida Lyngstad (from ABBA) In recording studio with Phil Collins

 

[DennisN]

Ok, I was apparently on the right track with my research on the similarities between The Beatles and ABBA in the other thread...

Why? Here's my take on it after my research:

1. They were incredibly versatile, playing many different music styles (so did the Beatles), e.g. pop, rock, experimental and even musical-like
2. They actively mixed different styles into new unique styles (so did the Beatles)
3. They had (at least) TWO ridiculously good composers in the band (as did the Beatles)
4. They wrote easy listening stuff, but they also wrote very advanced music (so did the Beatles)
5. Even so, they both still had a unique sound; if your hear The Beatles or ABBA you can not mistake it for something else.

What ABBA Learned From The Beatles!
- Benny Andersson has apparently said that a key lesson they learned from the Beatles was to diversify their music

 

[DennisN]

The Eagle is possibly my favourite but like the Beatles it changes.

I just listened to a Q&A from last year where Björn and Benny were asked what their own favorite ABBA songs are, and one of the songs was "Eagle" (Q&A@39m05s) .

 

[pinball1970]

Agnetha

Probably one of my favourite bits of footage. She is just walking around singing, 1971/72 technology, just her and the piano.

Notice where she holds the mike? Her technique was just perfect, that power when she needed it, gorgeous tone, vibrato and right on pitch just smiling walking about.

Ignore the comments by Waterman is my advice. Who cares what he thinks? Probably did more to ruin creative music than anyone in the 1980s.

 

[pinball1970]

They start with the chorus here. Lots going on over one chord, I think the lower melody is just genius, you would not think of it.
This version because the live video misses that high harmony. They sing in octaves which can really sound like garbage but this is ABBA so..

PLUS, we get the intro and little insight from Agnetha before the track. Ignore the fact they are miming or just singing over what you hear and it is in someone's parlour. Complete with 1970s carpet.

 

[pinball1970]

Eagle

 

[Hornbein]

Summer Night City, the ebass player is giving it a lot of groove.

 

[DennisN]

They start with the chorus here. Lots going on over one chord, I think the lower melody is just genius, you would not think of it.
This version because the live video misses that high harmony. They sing in octaves which can really sound like garbage but this is ABBA so..

PLUS, we get the intro and little insight from Agnetha before the track. Ignore the fact they are miming or just singing over what you hear and it is in someone's parlour. Complete with 1970s carpet.

"Summer Night City" (1978) is a very special song, criminally underrated.
It is categorized as a pop/europop/disco song, but if you listen closely, ABBA is not just doing disco in this song; they are (maybe subconsciously at that time) pointing to the future of music.

Listen e.g. to the bridge at 1:01; there is suddenly a synth arpeggio coming in, which gives it a trancelike feel.

You could pretty easily do a modern electro/trance/EDM cover of this song today. "Summer Night City" is a very early precursor to such music.

And the other criminally underrated ABBA song "The Visitors" (1981), is actually a sort of a rewrite
of "Summer Night City"¹. The songs don't sound the same, but it's because ABBA evolved (and then dissolved).

First, listen to the instrumental intro of "Summer Night City" at 0:17.
It is the same melody pattern as the chorus in "The Visitors" at 2:10 (it's not exactly the same, but very similar).

And in "The Visitors" you hear the future of music more clearly:

1. ABBA has suddenly removed all guitars and piano and replaced them with synths and sound effects (at least I don't think there are any guitars or piano; if there are, they are put far into the background). Edit: there are guitars, but they are more used for effects in the background. They are distorted and with heavy reverb/delay effects on them, and some of them maybe are played backwards.

2. The standard disco beat has been replaced by a more dynamic (varying in volume) drum track (sounding more like electronic music that later came, and is also still made today):

• The intro and the first part of the verse (0:03-1:18): no drums. The underlying single note synth "arpeggio" is what keeps the beat instead.
• In the second part of the first verse (1:18-2:11), the drums suddenly come in. But it's not a "full" beat, it's a four on the floor buildup (i.e. the basic beat is four evenly placed kickhits, but they are building up in intensity over the entire second part of the first verse).
• In the chorus (2:11-3:11), the full beat comes in, but it does not quite sound like a disco beat. It is more laidback in volume and also more straight (less groove).

ABBA is in "The Visitors" leaving the 1970s and going into the 1980s and beyond, and sounding very, very different. I wonder what would have happened if they had stayed together and continued to evolve. Sadly, we will never know.

All in all, this is also a testament to their talent.
It's pretty amazing when you think of it; their breakthrough song "Waterloo" (1974) has the fundamental elements of pop and glam rock, then they did a lot of disco, ballads and art pop/rock and finally they ended up doing "The Visitors" (1981) which is a synthpop song and a precursor to later, and also, modern music.

That is versatility.

¹ I have no source at the moment that confirms this, but if I remember correctly I have read somewhere that this is actually the case.

 

[pinball1970]

"Summer Night City" (1978) is a very special song, criminally underrated.
It is categorized as a pop/europop/disco song, but if you listen closely, ABBA is not just doing disco in this song; they are (maybe subconsciously at that time) pointing to the future of music.

Listen e.g. to the bridge at 1:01; there is suddenly a synth arpeggio coming in, which gives it a trancelike feel.

You could pretty easily do a modern electro/trance/EDM cover of this song today. "Summer Night City" is a very early precursor to such music.

And the other criminally underrated ABBA song "The Visitors" (1981), is actually a sort of a rewrite
of "Summer Night City"¹. The songs don't sound the same, but it's because ABBA evolved (and then dissolved).

First, listen to the instrumental intro of "Summer Night City" at 0:17.
It is the same melody pattern as the chorus in "The Visitors" at 2:10 (it's not exactly the same, but very similar).

And in "The Visitors" you hear the future of music more clearly:

1. ABBA has suddenly removed all guitars and piano and replaced them with synths and sound effects (at least I don't think there are any guitars or piano; if there are, they are put far into the background). Edit: there are guitars, but they are more used for effects in the background. They are distorted and with heavy reverb/delay effects on them, and some of them maybe are played backwards.

2. The standard disco beat has been replaced by a more dynamic (varying in volume) drum track (sounding more like electronic music that later came, and is also still made today):

• The intro and the first part of the verse (0:03-1:18): no drums. The underlying single note synth "arpeggio" is what keeps the beat instead.
• In the second part of the first verse (1:18-2:11), the drums suddenly come in. But it's not a "full" beat, it's a four on the floor buildup (i.e. the basic beat is four evenly placed kickhits, but they are building up in intensity over the entire second part of the first verse).
• In the chorus (2:11-3:11), the full beat comes in, but it does not quite sound like a disco beat. It is more laidback in volume and also more straight (less groove).

ABBA is in "The Visitors" leaving the 1970s and going into the 1980s and beyond, and sounding very, very different. I wonder what would have happened if they had stayed together and continued to evolve. Sadly, we will never know.

All in all, this is also a testament to their talent.
It's pretty amazing when you think of it; their breakthrough song "Waterloo" (1974) has the fundamental elements of pop and glam rock, then they did a lot of disco, ballads and art pop/rock and finally they ended up doing "The Visitors" (1981) which is a synthpop song and a precursor to later, and also, modern music.

That is versatility.

¹ I have no source at the moment that confirms this, but if I remember correctly I have read somewhere that this is actually the case.

It is so hard to listen to bits one just ends up listening to the whole song again!

I see what you mean though, bridge at 1.01 has that synth, plucking sound and ends in what sounds like a harmonic minor scale. I am at work so will check on the guitar later.
ABBA emptied the tool box on this one.
I had no idea it was about the short nights, I thought it was about just going out in town in the summer at night!

There is guitar but it is intermittent, listen to 49-50 just 4 notes over the girls singing so its subtle.

 

[sbrothy]

I’m a little surprised noone mentioned Boney M. (Or did I overlook one?). I think they’re very ABBA-like too. (Though I may be heavily biased as it was my very first LP!)

Lot’s of classic tunes and songs there too, IMHO.

 

[pinball1970]

I’m a little surprised noone mentioned Boney M. (Or did I overlook one?). I think they’re very ABBA-like too. (Though I may be heavily biased as it was my very first LP!)

Lot’s of classic tunes and songs there too, IMHO.

Boney M were more of a creation, some of the members did not sing and none of them did any writing.

 

[sbrothy]

Boney M were more of a creation, some of the members did not sing and none of them did any writing.

I honestly didn't know that. I'm aware that ABBA are in a class of their own though. No criticism intended. As I said: heavy bias. :P


[EDIT: s/it's/theirs]?
[EDIT: s/is/are]?

English. Crazy language.

It would be much easier if you all talked Danish. It's that too much to ask?

 

[pinball1970]

It would be much easier if you all talked Danish. It's that too much to ask?

A class of their own.

If I had a Danish friend as a youngster I am sure I would have made an attempt to learn some.

 

[DaveC426913]

"Argh." says the pedant.

ABBA is a band. One band.
ABBA is singular. ABBA are not plural.

"Why is ABBA so popular?"
"... ABBA is in a class of its own ..."

 

[docnet]

"Argh." says the pedant.

ABBA is a band. One band.
ABBA is singular. ABBA are not plural.

"Why is ABBA so popular?"
"... ABBA is in a class of its own ..."

You're probably technically correct, but people more often seem to use plural when referring to ABBA. For example: https://abbasite.com uses "their" when referring to ABBA.

 

[DaveC426913]

For example: https://abbasite.com uses "their" when referring to ABBA.

What do they know. Weirdos.

 

[mathwonk]

ABBA who ???, ...ahh..., now I know why I have barely heard of them; they were not formed until 1972! I had stopped listening to pop music by then and was trying to earn a living. to me the Beatles were a recent fad. my apologies to the cognoscenti.

I am pretty sure now they did not name themselves after this classic song:

 

[pinball1970]

"Argh." says the pedant.

ABBA is a band. One band.
ABBA is singular. ABBA are not plural.

"Why is ABBA so popular?"
"... ABBA is in a class of its own ..."

I don't feel that. ABBA is multiple people like a football team. Manchester United is in a class of its own? That does not work for me.
Look I want to get into the flattened 5th thing with " I'm a Marionette" so we need to put this to bed.
Linguistics thread?

 

[pinball1970]

ABBA who ???, ...ahh..., now I know why I have barely heard of them; they were not formed until 1972! I had stopped listening to pop music by then and was trying to earn a living. to me the Beatles were a recent fad. my apologies to the cognoscenti.

I am pretty sure now they did not name themselves after this classic song:

ABBA is just the first names of the people in the band.

 

[sbrothy]

"Argh." says the pedant.

ABBA is a band. One band.
ABBA is singular. ABBA are not plural.

"Why is ABBA so popular?"
"... ABBA is in a class of its own ..."

Yeah I knew I effed up but at that time I’d edited the post so many times already I just sorta decided to live my errors. Thus my comment about your inability to talk decent Danish.

Seriously, how hard can it be for you people to talk a language 5 million out of 7 billion master?

:)

 

[pinball1970]

Yeah I knew I effed up but at that time I’d edited the post so many times already I just sorta decided to live my errors. Thus my comment about your inability to talk decent Danish.

Seriously, how hard can it be for you people to talk a language 5 million out of 7 billion master?

:)

You're not wrong! ABBA is people, plural. @DaveC426913

 

[sbrothy]

You're not wrong! ABBA is people, plural. @DaveC426913

Oooh ouch. *Hides in a corner*.

 

[DaveC426913]

Seriously, how hard can it be for you people to talk a language 5 million out of 7 billion master?

:)

 

[phinds]

You're not wrong! ABBA is people, plural. @DaveC426913

Yes, it is made up of people, but "ABBA" is a band. Singular. Period. You would not likely say "the team are winning" and you should not say "ABBA are in a class of it's own" or "ABBA are a great band".

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, it is made up of people, but "ABBA" is a band. Singular. Period. You would not likely say "the team are winning" and you should not say "ABBA are in a class of it's own" or "ABBA are a great band".
View attachment 349952

I agree. But this sortta shut me down:

For example: https://abbasite.com uses "their" when referring to ABBA.

 

[phinds]

I agree. But this sortta shut me down:

The fact that they got it wrong doesn't make it right.

 

[sbrothy]

Yes, it is made up of people, but "ABBA" is a band. Singular. Period. You would not likely say "the team are winning" and you should not say "ABBA are in a class of it's own" or "ABBA are a great band

I really didn’t know here. The fact that you, supposedly, natural English speakers disagree gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. :)

 

[phinds]

I really didn’t know here. The fact that you, supposedly, natural English speakers disagree gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. :)

Well, don't let it go to your head. I disagree with everyone

 

[pinball1970]

Yes, it is made up of people, but "ABBA" is a band. Singular. Period. You would not likely say "the team are winning" and you should not say "ABBA are in a class of it's own" or "ABBA are a great band".
View attachment 349952

To be honest I would say "ABBA are a great band," also "ABBA are in a class of THEIR own."
"They are in a class of their own."
So I should be saying, "ABBA is in a class of its own?"

I am moving offices today, it is 8.28am in sunny Oldham NW England and all I am thinking about now, is doubting the grammar of my mother tongue.

We can at least agree English is a silly language I hope.

I bet ABBA never made grammatical errors.

 

[PeroK]

Boney M were more of a creation, some of the members did not sing and none of them did any writing.

The lead singer, Liz Mitchell, had a great voice. She could have had a successful solo career.

The big difference was ABBA's songwriting. Although, Rasputin might be the best pure pop song ever! I heard a music critic say that the best pop should have something surreal about it.

 

[PeroK]

Yes, it is made up of people, but "ABBA" is a band. Singular. Period. You would not likely say "the team are winning" and you should not say "ABBA are in a class of it's own" or "ABBA are a great band".
View attachment 349952

Oliver's army is here to stay.
Oliver's army are on their way.