Why do charges outside surface create no net flux?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of electric flux and its relationship to charges outside a closed surface. Participants explore why charges located outside a surface do not contribute to net electric flux through that surface, examining the implications of the electric field's behavior and the geometry of the surface.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the assertion that the net flux is zero, arguing that the electric field strength decreases with distance and thus the flux entering and exiting the surface cannot be equal due to differing magnitudes.
  • Another participant suggests that if there are no charges within the surface, all electric field lines must exit the surface, implying that the flux entering must equal the flux exiting.
  • It is noted that the integral of the electric field dot area must equal zero for the net flux to be zero, but the varying strength of the electric field complicates this assertion.
  • Participants discuss the role of the Gaussian surface and how its arbitrary nature can affect calculations, emphasizing that symmetry can simplify the analysis.
  • Some participants highlight that while the electric field strength may vary, the increased area through which the field lines exit compensates for the decrease in field strength.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the electric flux can be considered zero when charges are outside the surface. There is no consensus, as some argue for the cancellation of flux while others challenge this notion based on the behavior of the electric field.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the behavior of electric fields and the geometry of surfaces, indicating that assumptions about symmetry and field strength may influence their arguments. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of these factors on net flux.

yosimba2000
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Why do charges outside the surface contribute 0 net flux? The book I'm reading says it's because the flux entering the surface cancels out with the flux exiting the surface. But that means E dot Area must be exactly the same magnitude when entering and exiting to cancel out.

But we know E-field decreases by factor of R2, so as you increase in distance, area must increase by R2 in order to maintain the same magnitude of flux.

But what about in this situation? https://imgur.com/a/c2KS8

The areas penetrated by the E-Field have the same magnitude, but the E-fields are of different strength because E-Fields decrease by R2. So E dot A is different at each area, so flux in this situation cannot be 0.
 
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yosimba2000 said:
But what about in this situation? https://imgur.com/a/c2KS8
Flux also leaves the sides.

Sometimes thinking about lines of flux helps. If there is no charge in the surface then no lines start or stop inside the surface. Therefore, every line which goes in one side must come out somewhere else.
 
yosimba2000 said:
But that means E dot Area must be exactly the same magnitude when entering and exiting to cancel out.
It means that the integral of ##\mathbf{E}\cdot\mathbf{a}## must be zero
$$\oint\mathbf{E}\cdot d\mathbf{a}=0$$
yosimba2000 said:
But we know E-field decreases by factor of R2, so as you increase in distance, area must increase by R2 in order to maintain the same magnitude of flux.
The size of the Gaussian surface can be considered constant. The Gaussian surface itself is arbitrary and how it is drawn and is not constrained by the behavior of the electric field. Although picking a surface with identical symmetry to the field can drastically simplify the problem.
yosimba2000 said:
The areas penetrated by the E-Field have the same magnitude, but the E-fields are of different strength because E-Fields decrease by R2. So E dot A is different at each area, so flux in this situation cannot be 0.
You forgot about the flux through the sides and the flux through the ends is not correct. The total flux is zero if you find it correctly.
 
Dale said:
Flux also leaves the sides.

Sometimes thinking about lines of flux helps. If there is no charge in the surface then no lines start or stop inside the surface. Therefore, every line which goes in one side must come out somewhere else.

But the field strength when the line enters is stronger than when the field line leaves. So still, the areas must somehow compensate for this, right?
 
yosimba2000 said:
But the field strength when the line enters is stronger than when the field line leaves. So still, the areas must somehow compensate for this, right?
Yes, but there is more area over which the field lines are leaving.
 
yosimba2000 said:
But the field strength when the line enters is stronger than when the field line leaves. So still, the areas must somehow compensate for this, right?
The field strength is proportional to the spacing of the lines. So it automatically ensures that as the field gets weaker it covers a larger area.
 

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