Why does a fluid exert an upward force?

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    Fluid Force
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms by which fluids exert forces, particularly in the context of fluid mechanics. Participants explore the nature of upward forces exerted by fluids, the role of pressure, and the underlying principles that govern these phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a demonstration involving a suction cup, noting that the difference in air pressure between the atmosphere and the air trapped beneath the cup creates a net upward force that must be overcome to lift it.
  • Another participant explains that pressure in a fluid acts from all directions, increasing with depth due to gravity, resulting in a net upward force.
  • A participant questions the reason behind the exertion of force by fluids, seeking clarification on what within a liquid generates this force.
  • It is suggested that the motion of atoms and molecules, along with surface tension and gravitational effects, contribute to the pressure exerted by fluids.
  • A later reply emphasizes the role of Brownian motion in producing net forces, although another participant points out the specific definition of Brownian motion in scientific terms.
  • One participant introduces a concept related to Gibbs free energy, suggesting that forces at a boundary arise from energy minimization principles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying viewpoints on the mechanisms behind fluid forces, with some agreeing on the role of pressure and others questioning the underlying causes. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific nature of the forces exerted by fluids.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about fluid behavior, the definitions of terms like Brownian motion, and the complexity of energy principles involved. These aspects remain open for further exploration.

rabbitweed
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I'm doing first year physics, and we've just stared a unit on Fluid Mechanics

Our lecturer showed us a demonstration of suction, lifting up a table by attaching a rubber suction matt type device, with a handle on it. The point of the demonstration was to show that even though the rubber suction device didn't weigh much, the difference in air pressure between the normal atmosphere of the lecture hall and the air trapped beneath the suction cup was so great that considerably pore force had to be applied to break the suction.

Now, my understand is, this is due to the fact that while the atmospheric pressure is exerting a downwards force on the suction object, due to the scarcity/low density of air trapped beneath it, that there is less upwards force being applied to the bottom of the suction cup, so the net force that one must overcome to lift it is greater.

My question is, what is it about fluid that exerts a force upwards, or indeed, in any direction not aligned with gravity? The downwards acting force of the atmosphere I get, because it has mass and is under the force of gravity, but an upwards force exerted on an object I do not understand. What acceleration is happening at the surface of a fluid!?

Sorry if I have explained this for me, let me know if you need clarification.
 
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The force/pressure exerts from every direction around the object. But the pressure get higher when you get deeper in the fluid (thanks to gravitation). So the net force is upward.

Try using the suction cup under the water. You can get the net force in any direction exactly like when using it in the air.
 
ikkyu said:
The force/pressure exerts from every direction around the object.

Yes, but my question is why?

What inside a liquid exerts a force on its surroundings?
 
rabbitweed said:
Yes, but my question is why?

What inside a liquid exerts a force on its surroundings?

The atoms/molecules with their brownian motion hit everything around them and produce a net force so to speak. Surface tension acounts for a small part of preassure in every liquid and gravity plus depth presses on every layer beneath.

If at 10 m in water you would have roughly one atm of surplus preassure then that means that the air above you on the ground has the same weight as the column of water. A column of atmospheric air of 1 sqr meter 50 km high would roughly weigh 10 tonnes.
 
Lok said:
The atoms/molecules with their brownian motion...

Strictly speaking, in the interest of scientific accuracy, Brownian motion refers to the visible effect of molecular kinetic energy on suspended particulate matter in a fluid, not to the motion of the aoms or molecules themselves.
 
rabbitweed said:
Yes, but my question is why?

What inside a liquid exerts a force on its surroundings?

The force exists at a boundary because the total energy (technically, the total Gibbs free energy) of the system would be lower if the boundary moved a little in the direction of the force. (In fact, this is the origin of all forces. It all comes down to free energy minimization -- or equivalently, entropy maximization.)
 

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