Why Ignore Tension In Pulley and Work Energy Problems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the analysis of pulley and block systems in work-energy problems, particularly focusing on why tension in ropes and pulleys is often ignored in these analyses. Participants explore the implications of this simplification in the context of learning dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that ignoring the work done by cables and ropes simplifies the analysis, allowing learners to focus on the blocks themselves.
  • Others argue that while it is true that some work is required to rotate pulleys and that ropes are not massless, these effects are usually small compared to the work needed to lift heavy masses.
  • A participant notes that the simplification is more about differing orders of magnitude rather than an intrinsic property of pulley systems that would make their work functions always equal to zero.
  • One participant compares the situation to a perfectly frictionless surface, implying that certain idealizations are made for simplicity.
  • Another participant points out that in real-world applications, friction in pulleys and gears cannot always be ignored, especially in high ratio step-up arrangements where friction can significantly affect the required input torque.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of ignoring tension in pulley systems. While there is some agreement on the simplification being useful for learning, there is also recognition that real-world factors like friction can complicate the analysis.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the simplification of ignoring tension may depend on the specific context of the problem and the assumptions made about the system, such as the mass of the ropes and the effects of friction.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and educators in physics and dynamics, as well as professionals dealing with mechanical systems involving pulleys and blocks.

LickMyEyeball
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A pulley and block system is a favorite type of system for analysis when considering work-energy problems in beginning dynamics.

It's commonly recommended that the best approach to the system is to write an equation for the whole system, while ignoring the work done by cables/ropes and focusing on the blocks themselves.

What is the property of rope and pulley systems that allows the analysis to ignore them in this case? I'm just curious and am looking for insight.

Thank you for your time.
 
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It would unnecessarily complicate the analysis when the point is to learn to solve simple problems. It is true that some work is required to rotate the pulleys, ropes are not massless, etc., but in real world systems those effects are usually small compared to whatever work is required to accomplish the task as hand, such as lifting a heavy mass, and so can be ignored.
 
alan2 said:
It would unnecessarily complicate the analysis when the point is to learn to solve simple problems. It is true that some work is required to rotate the pulleys, ropes are not massless, etc., but in real world systems those effects are usually small compared to whatever work is required to accomplish the task as hand, such as lifting a heavy mass, and so can be ignored.

Thanks for your reply. So I understand that it's more a question of differing orders of magnitude, as opposed to some intrinsic property of pulley systems, say, always performing work functions that equal out to zero, for example.
 
Yes. It is akin to the perfectly frictionless surface.
 
LickMyEyeball said:
Thanks for your reply. So I understand that it's more a question of differing orders of magnitude, as opposed to some intrinsic property of pulley systems, say, always performing work functions that equal out to zero, for example.

Yes the former.

In the real world friction in pulleys and gears can't always be ignored. Particularly if you have a high ratio step-up arrangement where any friction in the output is magnified by the gear ratio to increase the required input torque considerably.
 

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