Why simultaneous detection of wave and particle nature is not possible

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the possibility of simultaneously detecting the wave and particle nature of light and electrons, particularly in the context of experiments involving electron beams and magnetic fields. Participants explore theoretical frameworks, historical models, and experimental setups related to wave-particle duality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that there is no experiment designed to detect both wave and particle nature simultaneously, referencing traditional teachings.
  • Others question the source of these teachings and ask for references to support the claims made about wave and particle nature.
  • One participant mentions the semiclassical model of light developed by Planck and Einstein, suggesting it may relate to the discussion but acknowledges the complexity of quantum electrodynamics (QED).
  • There is a proposal to consider the behavior of matter waves in relation to light waves, with requests for clarification on similarities and differences.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the specific models referenced and suggest that the original claims may stem from popular science rather than rigorous academic sources.
  • Questions arise regarding the measurement of the bending of the electron beam in the proposed experimental setup, with a suggestion of using electron detectors to observe deviations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the original claims regarding wave and particle detection. There are competing views on the validity of the statements made and the sources of those statements, leading to ongoing debate and clarification requests.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the nature of light and electrons, as well as the dependence on specific definitions and models. The complexity of QED and its implications for light behavior is acknowledged but not fully explored.

Ablaze_
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We have been taught that the there is no experiment designed to detect wave and particle nature of light simultaneously. Also, that light propagates by the virtue of its wave nature and interacts by the virtue of its particle nature.

let us take an electron beam passing through two slits while similarly being in a constant magnetic field. Now, we will see interference as well as bending of electron beam due to magnetic field. Aren't we getting wave and particle nature simultaneously?

(Also note that the phase velocity of waves is different than that of the particle, so we may also get different magnetic force on particles even though we consider that F=qv*B can be applied for a wave.)
 
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Ablaze_ said:
We have been taught that the there is no experiment designed to detect wave and particle nature of light simultaneously. Also, that light propagates by the virtue of its wave nature and interacts by the virtue of its particle nature.

Where have "we" been "taught" these things? Can you give a reference?

Ablaze_ said:
let us take an electron beam

Do you want to talk about light or electrons?
 
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PeterDonis said:
Where have "we" been "taught" these things? Can you give a reference?
Isnt this the semiclassical model for light to which Max Planck and Einstein had arrived after explaining black body radiation spectrum (by Planck) and photoelectric effect(by Einstein). Of course this is old stuff you might say, 1900s. Since the 1960s we have a complete quantum field theory of light called quantum electrodynamics of which I (and probably the OP too) have no idea.
Could you enlighten us perhaps and give us a brief description of what QED says about light when it travels and when it interacts?
 
PeterDonis said:
Where have "we" been "taught" these things? Can you give a reference?
Do you want to talk about light or electrons?
I assumed that the nature of matter waves is similar to the light wave. If it isn't i request you to point the respective behaviors in both the cases
 
Ablaze_ said:
I assumed that the nature of matter waves is similar to the light wave.

In some respects they are. But I asked where "we" were "taught" the specific things you said:

Ablaze_ said:
We have been taught that the there is no experiment designed to detect wave and particle nature of light simultaneously. Also, that light propagates by the virtue of its wave nature and interacts by the virtue of its particle nature.

Where are you getting this from? Do you have a reference?
 
Delta2 said:
Isnt this the semiclassical model for light to which Max Planck and Einstein had arrived after explaining black body radiation spectrum (by Planck) and photoelectric effect(by Einstein).

What the OP wrote does not match any specific model I'm aware of. That's why I'm asking where he got it from. I suspect it's from pop science sources, not an actual textbook or peer-reviewed paper.

Delta2 said:
Could you enlighten us perhaps and give us a brief description of what QED says about light when it travels and when it interacts?

Even a "brief" description at this level of generality is too much for a single PF thread. We would need to focus on a single specific experimental scenario.
 
Ablaze_ said:
Now, we will see interference as well as bending of electron beam due to magnetic field.

How are you measuring the bending of the electron beam?
 
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PeterDonis said:
How are you measuring the bending of the electron beam?
By some electron detector , say, a screen made from them, which detect the electron arrives there after how much deviation from their original position
 
Ablaze_ said:
By some electron detector , say, a screen made from them, which detect the electron arrives there after how much deviation from their original position

What do you think you will observe at this detector given the experimental setup you describe?
 

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