How observation leads to wavefunction collapse?

  • #151
Demystifier said:
With such a reasoning, we have TWO independent theories (nonrelativistic QM and relativistic QFT) that are mutually logically incompatible. ...

With what reasoning?

The only point I was trying to make was that \psi could not just be a mathematical entity as someone said.It's as much a wave as any other.You can't have a mathematical entity interfering with itself to give you an interference pattern.
 
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  • #152
gptejms said:
The only point I was trying to make was that \psi could not just be a mathematical entity as someone said.It's as much a wave as any other.You can't have a mathematical entity interfering with itself to give you an interference pattern.

I think that wave function \psi is a purely mathematical entity. It would be incorrect to imagine that \psi is some kind of physical fluid or field that propagates in space, interferes with itself, collapses, etc. In fact, \psi is an abstract probability density amplitude, and nothing else.

We can contact physical systems in two situations: preparation and measurement. So, the goal of a good theory is to describe these two regimes and their interconnections. Nothing objective can be said about what happens to the physical system between the events of preparation of measurement, i.e., when we are not watching. Even if we say something about this intermediate regime, our statements cannot be experimentally verified (by definition), so they are not objective.

In order to predict results of measurements from known preparation conditions we build a theoretical model (quantum mechanics). This model involves Hilbert spaces, Hermitian operators, normalized wave functions, and other purely mathematical objects, which work according to some formal rules. These objects are not parts of the physical world, they are just mathematical symbols. All this math allows us (somewhat mysteriously) to predict results of physical measurements with great precision. However, this is not a reason to assume the existence of wave functions as some physical entities.

Eugene.
 
  • #153
meopemuk said:
These objects are not parts of the physical world, they are just mathematical symbols. All this math allows us (somewhat mysteriously) to predict results of physical measurements with great precision. However, this is not a reason to assume the existence of wave functions as some physical entities.

Eugene.

We end up agreeing to such statements because of our constant brain-washing.But it's like gulping down something we don't have in our mouth--btw how nice it would have been if we could gulp down mathematical entities rather than food and feel satiated!

I think physicists need to do more than carrying on with such mythological stories.
 
  • #154
gptejms said:
We end up agreeing to such statements because of our constant brain-washing.But it's like gulping down something we don't have in our mouth--btw how nice it would have been if we could gulp down mathematical entities rather than food and feel satiated!

I think physicists need to do more than carrying on with such mythological stories.

You may not agree with me and think that wavefunctions are some kinds of physical fluids. Fine. Then you will be pressed to answer a lot of unpleasant questions and to resolve a lot of strange paradoxes. One difficulty would be to explain how this diffuse fluid that is spread all over the world produces definite clicks of localized particle detectors. You will need to explain how this fluid interacts with detectors, why this interaction leads to the "collapse"? Even more interestingly, for consistency you will need to describe the detector in a quantum way, i.e., also by some kind of wavefunction fluid. Then you will have two fluids to worry about. How do they collapse? Do they interact with our brain?

You can spend all your life (and some people do) trying to answer these questions. I am saying that all these questions simply have no answer for a simple reason that they are not formulated in a manner that can be confirmed by experiment. Statements that cannot be verified by experiment are not about nature. They are either about our mathematical models or about philosophy. Wavefunctions are not "natural fluids". They are parts of our mathematical model of nature. Their collapse is also a part of our mathematical model. So, there is no need to worry that the collapse occurs instantaneously. There is nothing material that moves or changes during these "collapses".

Do you feel brainwashed yet?
 
  • #155
meopemuk said:
You may not agree with me and think that wavefunctions are some kinds of physical fluids. Fine. Then you will be pressed to answer a lot of unpleasant questions and to resolve a lot of strange paradoxes. One difficulty would be to explain how this diffuse fluid that is spread all over the world produces definite clicks of localized particle detectors. You will need to explain how this fluid interacts with detectors, why this interaction leads to the "collapse"? Even more interestingly, for consistency you will need to describe the detector in a quantum way, i.e., also by some kind of wavefunction fluid. Then you will have two fluids to worry about. How do they collapse? Do they interact with our brain?

No,no fluid is a very poor thing to imagine---it's nowhere near to a wave! If you read my posts carefully,you'll see that all I am saying is that psi represents a wave/field,not just a mathematical entity--I don't know how the fluid thing came.

Historically non-relativistic QM came before relativistic QM, and QFT.Suppose it was the other way round--QFT was discovered first and then the Schrodinger equation.Wht interpreeeetation would you then give to psi?You would then think it to be a (quantum ) field that satisfied the continuity equation---and so it could be given the probability interpretation---or one could interpret that, in the non-relativistic limit, the particle number is fixed.I think that's all there is to it.

They are parts of our mathematical model of nature. Their collapse is also a part of our mathematical model. So, there is no need to worry that the collapse occurs instantaneously. There is nothing material that moves or changes during these "collapses".

Oh really?Then why all the fuss about the measurement problem?
 
  • #156
meopemuk said:
In order to predict results of measurements from known preparation conditions we build a theoretical model (quantum mechanics). This model involves Hilbert spaces, Hermitian operators, normalized wave functions, and other purely mathematical objects, which work according to some formal rules. These objects are not parts of the physical world, they are just mathematical symbols. All this math allows us (somewhat mysteriously) to predict results of physical measurements with great precision. However, this is not a reason to assume the existence of wave functions as some physical entities.

Eugene.

I don't think there is something mysterious in all of that, simply, the maths had been developed in such way that "fit" with our world, because they are logically compatible with it.

Wavefunction is a mathematical entity, but just in the same way as the classical trayectory is. Is something mathematical which alow us to describe some things. However we have, for the wave function, a continuity equation that permit us to think in the modulus^2 (the probability) as a fluid, in just some aspects.
 
  • #157
Shahin said:
I don't think there is something mysterious in all of that, simply, the maths had been developed in such way that "fit" with our world, because they are logically compatible with it.

Wavefunction is a mathematical entity, but just in the same way as the classical trayectory is. Is something mathematical which alow us to describe some things. However we have, for the wave function, a continuity equation that permit us to think in the modulus^2 (the probability) as a fluid, in just some aspects.
I don't agree with it. Wavefunction is much more abstract. The wavefunction describing a system of 2 only particles is defined in a 6-dimension space. Is this space real?
 
  • #158
lightarrow said:
I don't agree with it. Wavefunction is much more abstract. The wavefunction describing a system of 2 only particles is defined in a 6-dimension space. Is this space real?


Well, what u mean with the word "real"? if you are asking me if the world we live in can be considered mathematically as a 6 dimensional euclidean space; of course it isn't true, but i don't see the relation between the number of variables you need for the wavefunction and the "level of asbtraction" that it has. Besides, you are talking of a system of two particles, and it is logical that you will need three spatial coordinates for each particle, in analogie with a classical trayectory. Anyway i am not telling that the wavefunction and the classical trayectory are the same, i just mean that both of them are mathematical entities, and probably de wavefunction is less intuitive, but nothing more.
 
  • #159
gptejms said:
No,no fluid is a very poor thing to imagine---it's nowhere near to a wave! If you read my posts carefully,you'll see that all I am saying is that psi represents a wave/field,not just a mathematical entity--I don't know how the fluid thing came.

Yes, I understand. Fluid, wave, or field... something material.


gptejms said:
Historically non-relativistic QM came before relativistic QM, and QFT.Suppose it was the other way round--QFT was discovered first and then the Schrodinger equation.Wht interpreeeetation would you then give to psi?You would then think it to be a (quantum ) field that satisfied the continuity equation---and so it could be given the probability interpretation---or one could interpret that, in the non-relativistic limit, the particle number is fixed.I think that's all there is to it.

I am not sure we would do that. In my opinion, wave functions and quantum fields are completely different things that have nothing in common. Wave functions are probability amplitudes for measuring observables. Quantum fields are certain operators in the Fock space, which provide convenient building blocks for interaction Hamiltonians (or Lagrangians). Quantum fields are even farther from material world than wave functions are.

gptejms said:
Oh really?Then why all the fuss about the measurement problem?

I don't know. I think it is just a lot of hot air.
 
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  • #160
Shahin said:
Anyway i am not telling that the wavefunction and the classical trayectory are the same, i just mean that both of them are mathematical entities, and probably de wavefunction is less intuitive, but nothing more.


In my view, there is a significant difference between trajectories and wave functions. Trajectory is a collection of directly measurable values of an observable - position. Wave function is not directly observable. Trajectory is a record of facts. Wave function is a record of probabilities.

Eugene.
 
  • #161
lightarrow said:
I don't agree with it. Wavefunction is much more abstract. The wavefunction describing a system of 2 only particles is defined in a 6-dimension space. Is this space real?

Well, the complete specification of just one particle in classical mechanics also requires a 6-dimensional space (3 for position and 3 for momentum: without the momentum values, you do not know the initial conditions and hence cannot determine the motion). This space is also no more real - it is specifically called phase space, not real space.
 
  • #162
meopemuk said:
I am not sure we would do that. In my opinion, wave functions and quantum fields are completely different things that have nothing in common. Wave functions are probability amplitudes for measuring observables. Quantum fields are certain operators in the Fock space, which provide convenient building blocks for interaction Hamiltonians (or Lagrangians). Quantum fields are even farther from material world than wave functions are.

Ok then let me know what you would do--you have QFT and then somebody comes up with the Schrodinger equation.What interpretation would you give to \psi?Let this question be open to all.
 
  • #163
masudr said:
Well, the complete specification of just one particle in classical mechanics also requires a 6-dimensional space (3 for position and 3 for momentum: without the momentum values, you do not know the initial conditions and hence cannot determine the motion). This space is also no more real - it is specifically called phase space, not real space.
Of course, but those 6 parameters refers to the initial conditions, not to the location of the particle during its motion. With a vavefunction it's different: those 6 parameters refers just to the motion of the particle.
 
  • #164
meopemuk said:
In my view, there is a significant difference between trajectories and wave functions. Trajectory is a collection of directly measurable values of an observable - position. Wave function is not directly observable. Trajectory is a record of facts. Wave function is a record of probabilities.
Eugene.
Exactly. I quote you.
 
  • #165
meopemuk said:
Thanks for the reference. I actually had this paper in my collection for a while. You can guess that I have a few objections. Many of them have been posted on this forum already. I am not sure if you want to start another round. Maybe we can agree to disagree, and heal our wounds for a while?
In fact, I do not know what would be your main objections against THIS paper. Could you briefly indicate them?
 
  • #166
lightarrow said:
Of course, but those 6 parameters refers to the initial conditions, not to the location of the particle during its motion. With a vavefunction it's different: those 6 parameters refers just to the motion of the particle.

No: the state space in single-particle classical mechanics is 6-dimensional. The state space in single-particle quantum mechanics is an infinite dimensional Hilbert space.

Specifically, the wavefunction is a representation of a vector in the latter space, and we can conveniently label the representation by 3 real numbers.

My point is that if you are going to compare CM with QM, then you must compare like for like. In this case, we are comparing state spaces, and I am saying how the state space in neither case should resemble anything to do with spacetime.

Here, you seem to have a problem that a 2-particle quantum system requires 6 parameters, and somehow this is problematic given that the space we know is only 3-dimensional. Do you still find it problematic given the above discussion on state space?
 
  • #167
meopemuk said:
In my view, there is a significant difference between trajectories and wave functions. Trajectory is a collection of directly measurable values of an observable - position. Wave function is not directly observable. Trajectory is a record of facts. Wave function is a record of probabilities.

Eugene.

Of course, as i have explained, the wavefunction and the classical trayectory are not the same. But in some way, they are similar, because they are mathematical entities that we use to describe some world we live in, but we use them in different range of scales.
 
  • #168
Shahin said:
Of course, as i have explained, the wavefunction and the classical trayectory are not the same. But in some way, they are similar, because they are mathematical entities that we use to describe some world we live in, but we use them in different range of scales.

As I have explained above, the wavefunction and trajectory aren't even qualitatively equivalent. The wavefunction corresponds to a point in state space in classical mechanics. This state space looks nothing like the actual space in which particles move (where they may trace out a trajectory).
 
  • #169
masudr said:
As I have explained above, the wavefunction and trajectory aren't even qualitatively equivalent. The wavefunction corresponds to a point in state space in classical mechanics. This state space looks nothing like the actual space in which particles move (where they may trace out a trajectory).

I disagree with you. It´s like if I say that the classical space in which a particle is moving is infinite-dimensional just because the fourier´s expansion (in some orthonormal system) of the three position´s functions is infinite. The point is that, to get all the information possible about a particle, you have to introduce in psi three numbers (x,y,z) for the position, and another for the time. Obviously, psi lives in a hilbert space of infinite dimensions and it is hardly different compared with a classical trayectory, but i just want to say that both of them are mathematical entities to describe the world, and in taht sense, they are the same.

PS: Are my posts too difficult for reading because my basic level of english?
 
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  • #170
Your English is fine, in fact I wouldn't of guessed it wasn't your first language. I think physics is just one of those fields were there are a lot of different interpretations, and precision is important, whether your speaking in your native language or not, you'll no doubt get a lot of discussion on something as theoretically divisive as the wave function and the implications of the mathematics. A 12 page thread adequately demonstrates this :smile:
 
  • #171
gptejms said:
Ok then let me know what you would do--you have QFT and then somebody comes up with the Schrodinger equation.What interpretation would you give to \psi?Let this question be open to all.

I don't understand your question completely. I decided to describe my understanding of wave functions, quantum fields, Schroedinger equation and relativistic wave equations in quantum mechanics and in QFT. Hopefully, this will answer your question. This is going to be quite long. Please bear with me. Those who read S. Weinberg "The quantum theory of fields" vol. 1 may recognize that here I am trying to retell his book in few paragraphs.

First, there is no fundamental difference beween quantum mechanics and QFT. QFT is simply quantum mechanics applied to a class of systems in which the number of particles can change. For this reason, the Hilbert space of QFT cannot be a space with a fixed number of particles. The Hilbert space of QFT is constructed as a direct sum of n-particle spaces (or sectors), where n varies from 0 to infinity. This direct sum is called the Fock space. In the Fock space, there is a 1-dimensional no-particle subspace (n=0), which is called vacuum. There are also 1-particle subspaces (sectors n=1) for each type of particle in the theory: 1-electron sector, 1-photon sector. Then there are 2-particle sectors (n=2) with different combinations of particles: "2 electrons", or "2 photons", or "1 electron plus 1 photon", ... etc. Take a direct sum of all these sectors and you obtain the Fock space which is the Hilbert space of states in QFT.

All standard Rules of Quantum Mechanics work without change in this Fock space. Any state of the system is described by a state vector. Observables are described by Hermitian operators. You can build orthonormal bases there, define a Hamiltonian, etc. The only difference is that the number of particles is not fixed. If you have an arbitrary state vector |\Psi \rangle in the Fock space, you can take projections of this vector on sectors with different numbers of particles n=0,1,2,3,... In each of these sectors you can have an orthonormal basis (e.g. a basis of position eigenvectors). So, in each of these sectors you can have an n-particle wave function. Then the total wave function corresponding to the state \Psi \rangle is a suporposition of all these wave functions with complex coefficients. To write all this down would require a cumbersome notation. I will give you just a couple of simple examples.

Suppose that the state vector |\Psi \rangle lies entirely in a 1-particle sector corresponding to a massive spinless particle. One can define a basis of position eigenvectors | \mathbf{r} \rangle in this sector and find the wave function of |\Psi \rangle in this representation \psi (\mathbf{r}) = \langle \mathbf{r} | \Psi \rangle.

The time evolution of any state vector in the Fock space is generally described by

-i \hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} | \Psi(t) \rangle = H | \Psi(t) \rangle (1)

where H = \sqrt{\mathbf{P}^2c^2 + M^2 c^4} is the Hamiltonian defined in the entire Fock space, \mathbf{P} and M are operators of the total momentum and total mass, respectively. Let us now consider the simple case in which there are no interaction terms in the Hamiltonian H. In particular, each n-particle sector remains invariant with respect to time evolution. In the 1-particle subspace described above, we can multiply eq. (1) by the bra vector \langle \mathbf{r} | from the left, and take into account that M is reduced to multiplication by a number m, which the mass of the particle. Then we get the Schroedinger equation for the wave function of one free particle in QFT

-i \hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \psi(\mathbf{r}, t) = <br /> \sqrt{-\hbar^2 c^2 \nabla^2 + m^2 c^4} \psi(\mathbf{r}, t)

A similar construction can be repeated in the case of a two-particle state. The wavefunction may be written as \psi (\mathbf{r}_1, \mathbf{r}_2), and the Schroedinger equation is

-i \hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \psi (\mathbf{r}_1, \mathbf{r}_2)= <br /> \Bigl( \sqrt{-\hbar^2 c^2 \nabla_1^2 + m^2 c^4} + \sqrt{-\hbar^2 c^2 \nabla_2^2 + m^2 c^4}\Bigr)\psi (\mathbf{r}_1, \mathbf{r}_2)

In the case of multiparticle systems with interactions that can change the number of particles, it is almost impossible to write the Schroedinger equation in this notation, so it is more preferable to use the abstract form (1).


Now, you may ask, where are quantum fields? I didn't need this concept so far. In fact, quantum fields have no relationship to particle wave functions. Their role in QFT is completely different. They are needed in order to write down the interaction part V of the full Hamiltonian H = H_0 +V. This is a non-trivial construction if we want to have a Hamiltonian that satisfies the principle of relativistic invariance. I can tell you the story of quantum fields and their wave equations (Dirac, Klein-Gordon, etc.) if we can agree that what I wrote so far makes sense.

Eugene.
 
  • #172
masudr said:
As I have explained above, the wavefunction and trajectory aren't even qualitatively equivalent. The wavefunction corresponds to a point in state space in classical mechanics. This state space looks nothing like the actual space in which particles move (where they may trace out a trajectory).

The path integral forumlation of quantum mechanics states that the wavefunction is every possible path (trajectory) from one state to the next. It reduces to the classical trajectory when the phases cancel almost everywhere except the classical path.
 
  • #173
Mike2 said:
The path integral forumlation of quantum mechanics states that the wavefunction is every possible path (trajectory) from one state to the next. It reduces to the classical trajectory when the phases cancel almost everywhere except the classical path.

I'm not sure how this is related to anything I've said.
 
  • #174
masudr said:
I'm not sure how this is related to anything I've said.

A path is a trajectory through spacetime. The path integral speaks about the paths that a particle takes, and therefore takes into account trajectories. The path integral is also another definition of the wavefunction. Therefore, the wavefunction is related to trajectories, right?
 
  • #175
Shahin said:
I disagree with you. It´s like if I say that the classical space in which a particle is moving is infinite-dimensional just because the fourier´s expansion (in some orthonormal system) of the three position´s functions is infinite.

You can't actually say that. The particle in classical mechanics needs 6 quantities for a complete description. If you can describe it in less than 6, then you have done something quite remarkable.

3 quantities do not describe a particle in quantum mechanics. The value of the function at all possible co-ordinates (or all possible energy, or all possible momenta etc.) are required to fully describe just one single state.

The point is that, to get all the information possible about a particle, you have to introduce in psi three numbers (x,y,z) for the position, and another for the time.

Not only that, but you also need to have a complex-valued function of those 4 variables (i.e. an infinite set of complex numbers). However, in classical mechanics, all the information is contained in 6 numbers, and there is no need for a function. This is why a classical mechanical state space is 6-dimensional, whereas quantum mechanical state space is infinite dimensional.

Obviously, psi lives in a hilbert space of infinite dimensions and it is hardly different compared with a classical trayectory, but i just want to say that both of them are mathematical entities to describe the world, and in taht sense, they are the same.

I'm glad you agree that they are different, but you initially had a problem with QM because 2 particles require 6 variables, and I picked up on that. All I am saying is that, at any moment in time, in the single particle case, CM requires 6 numbers for a complete description, and QM requires an infinite set of numbers, but they can be indexed by 3 variables. Can you see why the two aren't even qualitatively equivalent?

PS: Are my posts too difficult for reading because my basic level of english?

Apart from the odd spelling mistake (e.g. trajectory, not trayectory), your English is remarkably good.
 
  • #176
Mike2 said:
The path integral forumlation of quantum mechanics states that the wavefunction is every possible path (trajectory) from one state to the next.

It does no such thing: it states that the transition amplitude (which is not the wavefunction) is the integral of a specific function of a specific functional of the path over every possible path.

It reduces to the classical trajectory when the phases cancel almost everywhere except the classical path.

The wavefunction does not reduce to the classical trajectory for large-scale phenomena. The transition amplitude tends to one for the classical trajectory for large-scale phenomena.
 
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  • #177
Mike2 said:
The path integral speaks about the paths that a particle takes, and therefore takes into account trajectories. The path integral is also another definition of the wavefunction.

No. Specifically, the path integral approach states that the integral of

e^{i S[x] / \hbar}

over all paths gives the transition amplitude, not the wavefunction, for the particle to actually take the path that is fed into S[x].

Therefore, the wavefunction is related to trajectories, right?

It is true to say that they have some level of dependence. To say they are related is pushing it a bit. To say that they are qualitatively equivalent (which is the source of the original dispute between Shahin and I) is, I feel, completely incorrect.
 
  • #178
Demystifier said:
In fact, I do not know what would be your main objections against THIS paper. Could you briefly indicate them?

I believe we are talking about http://www.arxiv.org/quant-ph/0602024

In this paper you are trying to find a probabilistic interpretation for quantum fields in QED. As I argued in this thread (see, for example, my last post) and elsewhere, I don't see any need to do that, because n-particle wavefunctions in the Fock space can be easily defined by standard quantum mechanical means without any involvement of quantum fields. These wavefunctions have standard probabilistic interpretation and they satisfy all requirements that can be demanded from them by Rules of Quantum Mechanics.

Let me just show that your wavefunction definition (3) leads to a controversy. For simplicity, let us assume that we are interested only in one time instant, and set t=0 in this formula. In quantum mechanics the position-space wavefunction \psi(\mathbf{r}) corresponding to the 1-particle state | 1 \rangle is defined as an inner product of | 1 \rangle with eigenvectors of the position operator, which I denote | \mathbf{r} \rangle

\psi(\mathbf{r}) = \langle \mathbf{r} | 1 \rangle

Comparing this to your eq. (3) I may conclude that

\langle \mathbf{r} | = \langle 0 | \phi(\mathbf{r})

where

\phi(\mathbf{r}) = \int \frac{d^3p}{\sqrt{E_p}} \Bigl( e^{\frac{i}{\hbar} \mathbf{pr}} a_{\mathbf{p}}^{\dag} + e^{-\frac{i}{\hbar} \mathbf{pr}} a_{\mathbf{p}} \Bigr)

is the quantum field at t=0, and E_p is the one-particle energy (I omitted some unimportant factors to simplify formulas). Then I can write

\langle \mathbf{r} |= \int \frac{d^3p}{\sqrt{E_p}} e^{-\frac{i}{\hbar} \mathbf{p} \mathbf{r}} \langle 0 | a_{\mathbf{p}} (1)

and

|\mathbf{r}&#039; \rangle= \int \frac{d^3p&#039;}{\sqrt{E_{p&#039;}}} e^{\frac{i}{\hbar} \mathbf{p&#039; r}} a_{\mathbf{p}&#039;} ^{\dag}|0 \rangle (2)

Eigenvectors of position must be orthogonal, therefore their inner product must be proportional to the delta function

\langle \mathbf{r} |\mathbf{r}&#039; \rangle \propto \delta (\mathbf{r-r&#039;})

Let us see if this important property is satisfied in your approach. Using formulas (1) and (2) and commutation relation

a_{\mathbf{p}&#039;} ^{\dag}a_{\mathbf{p}} -a_{\mathbf{p}} a_{\mathbf{p}&#039;} ^{\dag} = \delta (\mathbf{p-p}&#039;)

I obtain

\langle \mathbf{r} |\mathbf{r}&#039; \rangle = \int \frac{d^3p}{E_p} e^{\frac{i}{\hbar} \mathbf {p} (\mathbf{r-r&#039;})}


which is not proportional to the delta function because of the factor E_p in the denominator. So, in your approach a particle localized at point \mathbf{r} has a probability of being found in any other point \mathbf{r}&#039;. I think this is unacceptable.

Regards.
Eugene.
 
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  • #179
meopemuk said:
I
I obtain

\langle \mathbf{r} |\mathbf{r}&#039; \rangle = \int \frac{d^3p}{E_p} e^{\frac{i}{\hbar} \mathbf {p} (\mathbf{r-r&#039;})}


which is not proportional to the delta function because of the factor E_p in the denominator. So, in your approach a particle localized at point \mathbf{r} has a probability of being found in any other point \mathbf{r}&#039;. I think this is unacceptable.
This is exactly why it is said that particle localization in RELATIVISTIC QM does not make sense. But this is not really "my" approach, this is a standard definition of the wave function in relativistic QM/QFT. The problem, of course, is that you cannot interpret it in the usual way. You want to save the standard interpretation, but the price is that you must then crucify relativistic invariance.
 
  • #180
meopemuk said:
So, in your approach a particle localized at point \mathbf{r} has a probability of being found in any other point \mathbf{r}&#039;. I think this is unacceptable.

Is it more acceptable that suddenly one particle becomes several particles?

I guess the answer is that we didn't know how many particles we had to start with, but by the same token maybe we had insufficient confidence in the single particle concept in the first place?

If we are considering indistinguishable particles, there is no way of knowing wether we detect the same particle in two different places, or two alike particles. It seems to be different views of the same thing, and it could be argued that some inerpretations makes far more sense and that observation of a particle in two space-like separated positions suggest to us that we are in fact witnessing many particle systems. Because if you consider a black box, that you didn't prepare yourself, how many particles are in there? or what their nature is? If you say that "we have a system composed of 3 particles" then, where did thsi prior information come from? That's cheating :)

But I agree that either way there is something that isn't satisfactory.

The problem I have with the standard interpretation is that it requires completness to be consistent. And I don't like this, because it will probably lead to an unmanagable amount of parameters and possibilities that are never realized, but yet the formal possibility clogs our memories.

In reality we don't know everything. A theory that can't handle that in a consistent manner is akward to me.

Suppose that to the best of our knowledge we have a system with one particle. This is our prior information. Then we suddenly observe particles at space-like separated detectors. Now we have to revise our opinion, how do we do so?

I figure the standard answer would be that our prior information was wrong - ie we thought we hade one particle, when we in fact had a many particle system, which then consistently explains our observations.

But of course this is nonsense, because it doesn't help one bit. The information we have is all we have got! We can't possibly know that it's "right" (that it will never need revisions). I wnat a model of reality that explains in a coherent manner, how our information is updated, even when we have largely underestimated our own ignorance.

So how is it possible to underestimate your ignorance? If something is simply out of your experience and imagination, this wouldn't be part of your predictions. When you are first exposed to this, you will most probably face a contradiction, that we must respond to. Thinking "I was wrong" doesn't make any sense at all to me. It doesn't mean we were wrong, it just means that we acted upon all possible evidence at hand, and yet fail to predict the future, but that's life.

I know Demystifier has other ideas than me, and I think I see Eugene's point too, but I still share D's opinon that something is missing in the understanding.

/Fredrik
 
  • #181
masudr said:
You can't actually say that. The particle in classical mechanics needs 6 quantities for a complete description. If you can describe it in less than 6, then you have done something quite remarkable.

3 quantities do not describe a particle in quantum mechanics. The value of the function at all possible co-ordinates (or all possible energy, or all possible momenta etc.) are required to fully describe just one single state.



Not only that, but you also need to have a complex-valued function of those 4 variables (i.e. an infinite set of complex numbers). However, in classical mechanics, all the information is contained in 6 numbers, and there is no need for a function. This is why a classical mechanical state space is 6-dimensional, whereas quantum mechanical state space is infinite dimensional.



I'm glad you agree that they are different, but you initially had a problem with QM because 2 particles require 6 variables, and I picked up on that. All I am saying is that, at any moment in time, in the single particle case, CM requires 6 numbers for a complete description, and QM requires an infinite set of numbers, but they can be indexed by 3 variables. Can you see why the two aren't even qualitatively equivalent?



Apart from the odd spelling mistake (e.g. trajectory, not trayectory), your English is remarkably good.

Ok, now i think i undertand what you mean. But, tou have to admitt that, in some fundamental level, the wavefunction and the classical trajectory are the same in the sense that both of them are mathematical entities (of totally different kind) that we use to describe some propieties.

Another question, which i consider interesting, is that if the wave function give us all the posible information about the particle, or, if we have a lack of information as a result of an incomplete theory.
 
  • #182
masudr said:
You can't actually say that. The particle in classical mechanics needs 6 quantities for a complete description. If you can describe it in less than 6, then you have done something quite remarkable.

3 quantities do not describe a particle in quantum mechanics. The value of the function at all possible co-ordinates (or all possible energy, or all possible momenta etc.) are required to fully describe just one single state.



Not only that, but you also need to have a complex-valued function of those 4 variables (i.e. an infinite set of complex numbers). However, in classical mechanics, all the information is contained in 6 numbers, and there is no need for a function. This is why a classical mechanical state space is 6-dimensional, whereas quantum mechanical state space is infinite dimensional.



I'm glad you agree that they are different, but you initially had a problem with QM because 2 particles require 6 variables, and I picked up on that. All I am saying is that, at any moment in time, in the single particle case, CM requires 6 numbers for a complete description, and QM requires an infinite set of numbers, but they can be indexed by 3 variables. Can you see why the two aren't even qualitatively equivalent?



Apart from the odd spelling mistake (e.g. trajectory, not trayectory), your English is remarkably good.

Ok, now i think i undertand what you mean. But, tou have to admitt that, in some fundamental level, the wavefunction and the classical trajectory are the same in the sense that both of them are mathematical entities (of totally different kind) that we use to describe some propieties.

Another question, which i consider interesting, is that if the wave function give us all the posible information about the particle, or, if we have a lack of information as a result of an incomplete theory.
 
  • #183
masudr said:
You can't actually say that. The particle in classical mechanics needs 6 quantities for a complete description. If you can describe it in less than 6, then you have done something quite remarkable.

3 quantities do not describe a particle in quantum mechanics. The value of the function at all possible co-ordinates (or all possible energy, or all possible momenta etc.) are required to fully describe just one single state.



Not only that, but you also need to have a complex-valued function of those 4 variables (i.e. an infinite set of complex numbers). However, in classical mechanics, all the information is contained in 6 numbers, and there is no need for a function. This is why a classical mechanical state space is 6-dimensional, whereas quantum mechanical state space is infinite dimensional.



I'm glad you agree that they are different, but you initially had a problem with QM because 2 particles require 6 variables, and I picked up on that. All I am saying is that, at any moment in time, in the single particle case, CM requires 6 numbers for a complete description, and QM requires an infinite set of numbers, but they can be indexed by 3 variables. Can you see why the two aren't even qualitatively equivalent?



Apart from the odd spelling mistake (e.g. trajectory, not trayectory), your English is remarkably good.

Ok, now i think i undertand what you mean. But, you have to admitt that, in some fundamental level, the wavefunction and the classical trajectory are the same in the sense that both of them are mathematical entities (of totally different kind) that we use to describe some propieties.

Another question, which i consider interesting, is that if the wave function give us all the posible information about the particle, or, if we have a lack of information as a result of an incomplete theory.
 
  • #184
Shahin said:
Another question, which i consider interesting, is that if the wave function give us all the posible information about the particle, or, if we have a lack of information as a result of an incomplete theory.
For me, this is THE MOST interesting question of current physics.
 
  • #185
Eugene:

I just saw your response.Please continue with your explanations--I'll ask my questions at the end.
 
  • #186
Demystifier said:
This is exactly why it is said that particle localization in RELATIVISTIC QM does not make sense. But this is not really "my" approach, this is a standard definition of the wave function in relativistic QM/QFT. The problem, of course, is that you cannot interpret it in the usual way. You want to save the standard interpretation, but the price is that you must then crucify relativistic invariance.

I think that our differences have deep roots in our different belief systems. In my opinion, one significant point of disagreement is this (let me see if you agree that we disagree here). I think you are saying that if \psi(x) is a particle wave function in the reference frame at rest (x \equiv (\mathbf{r},t)), then from the point of view of a Lorentz-transformed observer the wave function should look like \psi(\Lambda x), where \Lambda is a 4 \times 4 matrix of the Lorentz transformation. Is this what you call "relativistic invariance"?
 
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  • #187
gptejms said:
Eugene:

I just saw your response.Please continue with your explanations--I'll ask my questions at the end.

In my previous post I explained how I understand n-particle wave functions in QFT. These definitions are not different from traditional definitions in ordinary QM. The probabilistic interpretation is clear, and probabilities are preserved in all reference frames, because transformations to different reference frames are represented by unitary operators.

Now, what about quantum fields? What is their role in QFT? Here I take the same position as in Weinberg's "The quantum theory of fields" vol. 1. His logic is the following. In order to construct a relativistic interacting theory in the Fock space we need to define a non-trivial unitary representation of the Poincare group there. This means that we cannot simply add some arbitrary interaction term V to the free Hamiltonian H_0 to obtain the full interacting Hamiltonian H = H_0 +V. The interaction V must satisfy some non-trivial conditions (commutation relations of the Poincare Lie algebra) in order to be consistent with the principle of relativity. There were a few proposals how to do that, but currently there is only one formalism that satisfies a number of additional conditions (e.g., cluster separability) and leads to a theory comparable with experiment (if we don't pay attention to renormalization difficulties). This formalism involves two steps:

1. For each type of particle define an operator function \phi(x) on the Minkowski space-time, such that
1a. this function is built from creation and annihilation operators of particles,
1b. this function (anti) commutes with itself at space-like separations,
1c. this function transforms in a covariant way with respect to the non-interacting representation of the Poincare group in the Fock space.

In his book Weinberg shows how these three conditions uniquely determine the form of quantum fields for different types of particles. He also shows how these conditions imply that quantum fields satisfy relativistic wave equations (KG, Dirac, etc.)

2. Build operator V as a polynomial in quantum fields with the additional condition that V is a scalar with respect to the non-interacting representation of the Poincare group.

This is how interaction operators are constructed in QFT, and it should be clear that quantum fields \phi(x) have relevance only to this construction. You may try to invent some probabilistic interpretation for quantum fields, but I think it is not necessary and, actually, goes against the logic of QFT, as I tried to explain above.

Eugene
 
  • #188
Eugene:

Thanks for your wonderful explanations.I now have the following questions:-

1.I had read that 'the wavefunction is a functional of the field and satisfies the Schrodinger equation'.Can you show that this is equivalent to what you said in your first post.

2.Suppose you have relativistic electron(s) fired into a double slit.Now how would you explain the interference pattern formed on the screen--in terms of interference of the above wavefunction or interference of the field(the field occurring in the wave equation of the relativistic electron(s)).

3.If you read Bjorken & Drell,you'll see that the K.G. equation and the Dirac equation can be reduced to the Schrodinger/Pauli equation.Now if I call what occurs in the relativistic equations as the field(and the \psi of Schrodinger equation as the wavefunction),a question arises.At what stage does the field decide to be a wavefunction?
 
  • #189
gptejms said:
1.I had read that 'the wavefunction is a functional of the field and satisfies the Schrodinger equation'.Can you show that this is equivalent to what you said in your first post.

I don't understand this phrase, and it doesn't make much sense, in my opinion.

gptejms said:
2.Suppose you have relativistic electron(s) fired into a double slit.Now how would you explain the interference pattern formed on the screen--in terms of interference of the above wavefunction or interference of the field(the field occurring in the wave equation of the relativistic electron(s)).

By usual quantum-mechanical rules wavefunction is a set of coefficients in the decomposition of the state vector in a given orthonormal basis. This definition I used in my post
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1379494&postcount=171
Two-slit interference should be described in terms of this wavefunction. Quantum fields have nothing to do with interference.


gptejms said:
3.If you read Bjorken & Drell,you'll see that the K.G. equation and the Dirac equation can be reduced to the Schrodinger/Pauli equation.Now if I call what occurs in the relativistic equations as the field(and the \psi of Schrodinger equation as the wavefunction),a question arises.At what stage does the field decide to be a wavefunction?

Yes, Bjorken & Drell in the beginning of their book talk about K.G and Dirac equations as equations for relativistic wavefunctions. Then they list multiple problems with this intepretation (non-conserved probabilities, Klein paradox, zitterbewegung, etc.) and say that in fact, these are equations for quantum fields. I find this very confusing.

Personally, I was able to understand QFT only after reading Weinberg's works, especially vol. 1 of his book. This is not an easy read, but his approach is the only logical way to introduce QFT that I can understand.

Fields never "decide to be wavefunctions". Fields and wavefunctions are completely different objects. It may sound ridiculous, but relativistic quantum field theory (i.e., a quantum theory with variable number of particles) can be formulated without introducing quantum fields at all. One can build the Fock space as a direct sum of n-particle spaces. Then one can define orthonormal bases in each sector of the Fock space, and build particle creation and annihilation operators that move state vectors between sectors. Then one can construct a Hamiltonian as a function of these creation and annihilation operators. After we have the Hamiltonian, everything else (bound states, scattering, etc.) follows from simple rules of ordinary quantum mechanics. No fields needed. An example of such an approach is given in

H. Kita "A non-trivial example of a relativistic quantum theory of particles without divergence difficulties" Progr. Theor. Phys. 35 (1966), 934

Eugene.
 
  • #190
meopemuk said:
I think that our differences have deep roots in our different belief systems. In my opinion, one significant point of disagreement is this (let me see if you agree that we disagree here). I think you are saying that if \psi(x) is a particle wave function in the reference frame at rest (x \equiv (\mathbf{r},t)), then from the point of view of a Lorentz-transformed observer the wave function should look like \psi(\Lambda x), where \Lambda is a 4 \times 4 matrix of the Lorentz transformation. Is this what you call "relativistic invariance"?
Exactly!
(At least for spinless particles, with a spin there is an additional transformation of \psi itself).
Now, what is your way of thinking?
 
  • #191
gptejms said:
1.I had read that 'the wavefunction is a functional of the field and satisfies the Schrodinger equation'.Can you show that this is equivalent to what you said in your first post.

2.Suppose you have relativistic electron(s) fired into a double slit.Now how would you explain the interference pattern formed on the screen--in terms of interference of the above wavefunction or interference of the field(the field occurring in the wave equation of the relativistic electron(s)).

3.If you read Bjorken & Drell,you'll see that the K.G. equation and the Dirac equation can be reduced to the Schrodinger/Pauli equation.Now if I call what occurs in the relativistic equations as the field(and the \psi of Schrodinger equation as the wavefunction),a question arises.At what stage does the field decide to be a wavefunction?

All that threat is the collection of the absurd statements made by ignorants. The numerous attempts of different posters (like you) to correct does not help. It starts so:

Post#1
Mr Virtual said:
So, in the double slit experiment, if a photon observes an electron, the interference pattern vanishes. Why is this so?

The photon do not observes an electron and the interference pattern do not vanish.

Post#2
olgranpappy said:
a single electron does not create an interference pattern

No comment.

It finished with

Post#189
meopemuk said:
Personally, I was able to understand QFT only after reading Weinberg's works, especially vol. 1 of his book. This is not an easy read, but his approach is the only logical way to introduce QFT that I can understand…

Fields never "decide to be wavefunctions". Fields and wavefunctions are completely different objects. It may sound ridiculous, but relativistic quantum field theory (i.e., a quantum theory with variable number of particles) can be formulated without introducing quantum fields at all. One can build the Fock space as a direct sum of n-particle spaces.

S.Weinberg “The Quantum Theory of Fields” v.1 p.107 (introductory remark):
“The physical states before and after the collision consist of particles that are so far apart that they are effectively non-interacting, so they can be described as direct products of the one-particle states discussed in the previous chapter.

In addition,the writer of post # 189 does not know and does not understand the difference between the linear superposition and the direct sum.

The situation is clearly explaned by Jimmysnyder:

“The OP wasn't really interested in knowing how many people understand the physics, they were asking how many can understand the math. I'm pretty sure they meant the math in an introductory text. When Feynman said no one understands QM, he didn't mean to imply that the authors couldn't do the math in their own books. In my opinion, anyone who is not mentally handicapped can understand an introductory QM text like Shankar's by the simple act of applying themselves to the task. However, lack of interest will prevent most people from commiting themselves for the amount of time it would take.”

I guess that the existence of that collection of nonsense is the consequence that Zz took a long vacation.

Regards, Dany.
 
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  • #192
meopemuk said:
I don't understand this phrase, and it doesn't make much sense, in my opinion.

If the hamiltonian involves the field,won't the wavefunction be a functional of the field?

meopemuk said:
Two-slit interference should be described in terms of this wavefunction. Quantum fields have nothing to do with interference.

If I do a Kirchoff integral kind of analysis with the KG equation(given a \psi at the slits,calculate the \psi at the screen--where \psi satisfies KG equation), I guess an interference pattern will result.So you can get an interference pattern with fields.



meopemuk said:
Yes, Bjorken & Drell in the beginning of their book talk about K.G and Dirac equations as equations for relativistic wavefunctions. Then they list multiple problems with this intepretation (non-conserved probabilities, Klein paradox, zitterbewegung, etc.) and say that in fact, these are equations for quantum fields. I find this very confusing.

Fields never "decide to be wavefunctions". Fields and wavefunctions are completely different objects.

i) do you agree that the KG equation describes a quantum field(and not a relativistic wavefunction)?ii)do you agree that the KG equation reduces to the Schrodinger equation in the non-relativistic limit?

If your answers to both the questions are yes,then it is important to answer how the field transforms into a wavefunction.

Finally a question:-

If I take your definition of the wavefunction in QFT and consider two slit interference experiment,then we would have vacuum interfering with itself,n=1 state interfering with itself,n=2 state interfering with itself etc.--would this lead to an interference pattern?
 
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  • #193
Demystifier said:
Exactly!
(At least for spinless particles, with a spin there is an additional transformation of \psi itself).
Now, what is your way of thinking?

Before I tell you my way of thinking, could you please explain why do you think this \psi(x) \to \psi(\Lambda x) is a good transformation formula for the wavefunction? Where this formula comes from? Let's consider spinless particles only to keep things simple.

Eugene.
 
  • #194
Anonym said:
S.Weinberg “The Quantum Theory of Fields” v.1 p.107 (introductory remark):
“The physical states before and after the collision consist of particles that are so far apart that they are effectively non-interacting, so they can be described as direct products of the one-particle states discussed in the previous chapter.

Dany,

you are right that n-particle states in quantum mechanics are described as direct (tensor) products of 1-particle states. However, in quantum field theory, one cannot fix the number of particles, so the full Hilbert space of the theory is built as a direct sum of such n-particle direct products, with n varying from 0 to infinity. This is called Fock space.

Eugene.
 
  • #195
gptejms said:
If the hamiltonian involves the field,won't the wavefunction be a functional of the field?
I don't understand what you mean by that. Hamilltonian and wavefunction are two different objects. Quantum field is a mathematical tool for constructing the Hamiltonian.



gptejms said:
If I do a Kirchoff integral kind of analysis with the KG equation(given a \psi at the slits,calculate the \psi at the screen--where \psi satisfies KG equation), I guess an interference pattern will result.So you can get an interference pattern with fields.

Yes, if you interpret thing like \langle 0 | \phi(x) | 1 \rangle as wave functions (i.e., probability amplitudes), then using K.G. wave equation you may "explain" interference patterns. But this interpretation and explanation would be not correct.



gptejms said:
i) do you agree that the KG equation describes a quantum field(and not a relativistic wavefunction)?

Yes, of course.


gptejms said:
ii)do you agree that the KG equation reduces to the Schrodinger equation in the non-relativistic limit?

No. KG equation has 2nd time derivative, but Schroedinger equation should have only 1st time derivative. Even in the (improbable) case when wave equations for quantum fields coincided with Schroedinger equations for wavefunctions, I wouldn't say that "quantum field = wavefunction". Two completely different objects may satisfy the same equation. So what?

gptejms said:
If I take your definition of the wavefunction in QFT and consider two slit interference experiment,then we would have vacuum interfering with itself,n=1 state interfering with itself,n=2 state interfering with itself etc.--would this lead to an interference pattern?

Could you please clarify your question. What do you mean by "vacuum interfering with itself"?
 
  • #196
meopemuk said:
I don't understand what you mean by that. Hamilltonian and wavefunction are two different objects. Quantum field is a mathematical tool for constructing the Hamiltonian.

If H and \psi(wavefunction) are connected by an equation(Schrodinger)(and H is constructed from fields),then the wavefunction would be a functional of the field.Anyway,I am not a QFT specialist,but I read this somewhere--may be others can add their comments.




Even in the (improbable) case when wave equations for quantum fields coincided with Schroedinger equations for wavefunctions, I wouldn't say that "quantum field = wavefunction". Two completely different objects may satisfy the same equation. So what?

Now that's a kind of statement about which I don't know what to say--it is 'escapist' to say the least.


Could you please clarify your question. What do you mean by "vacuum interfering with itself"?

You said in your 'first' post:-
'In each of these sectors you can have an orthonormal basis (e.g. a basis of position eigenvectors). So, in each of these sectors you can have an n-particle wave function. Then the total wave function corresponding to the state is a suporposition of all these wave functions with complex coefficients.'

So in your grand wavefunction you have a number of wavefunctions with different n(n=0,n=1,n=2 etc.) i.e. the particle number is not fixed.Now can you work out the interference pattern with this combination--please do the calculation and you'll see what I mean.
 
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  • #197
meopemuk said:
in quantum field theory, one cannot fix the number of particles, so the full Hilbert space of the theory is built as a direct sum of such n-particle direct products, with n varying from 0 to infinity. This is called Fock space.

What is called Fock space is defined by V.A.Fock and not by Eugene. It is clearly presented in every standard textbook on QT. The difference between the linear superposition and the direct sum also is clearly presented in every standard textbook on QT.

If you know Russian (I do not believe that it is translated to English) I suggest reading 28 pages book written by V.A.Fock,”Quantum Physics and Structure of Matter”, Leningrad Univ. Press (1965) that definitely will help you to understand QF.

V.A. Fock was the head of the theoretical physics department where I was educated. His spirit and his pupils taught us from the very first lecture in the physics and the mathematics (the Dedekind theorem was presented after 15min from the beginning of Classical Analysis).

I consider the continuation of this discussion surrealistic and tasteless.

Regards, Dany.
 
  • #198
gptejms said:
If H and \psi(wavefunction) are connected by an equation(Schrodinger)(and H is constructed from fields),then the wavefunction would be a functional of the field.

Your premises are correct: wavefunction and Hamiltonian are related by the Schroedinger equation, the Hamiltonian of QFT is (usually) constructed from fields. However, I don't understand how you reach your conclusion about the wavefunction being a "functional of fields". What does "functional of fields" mean, anyway?




gptejms said:
You said in your 'first' post:-
'In each of these sectors you can have an orthonormal basis (e.g. a basis of position eigenvectors). So, in each of these sectors you can have an n-particle wave function. Then the total wave function corresponding to the state is a suporposition of all these wave functions with complex coefficients.'

So in your grand wavefunction you have a number of wavefunctions with different n(n=0,n=1,n=2 etc.) i.e. the particle number is not fixed.Now can you work out the interference pattern with this combination--please do the calculation and you'll see what I mean.

Sure, the interference pattern can be described. Take, for example, Feynman's double slit experiment. In this case we are dealing with an 1-electron system moving in a potential (the screen with two slits can be described by a potential V(\mathbf{r})). The number of particles is definitely conserved in this case. So, our system can be fully described in the 1-particle sector of the Fock space. Then the relativistic Schroedinger equation in this sector can be written as

-i \hbar \frac{\partial}{\partial t} \psi(\mathbf{r},t) = <br /> \Bigl(\sqrt{-\hbar^2c^2 \nabla^2 + m^2c^4} + V(\mathbf{r}) \Bigr) \psi(\mathbf{r},t)

from which you can obtain the time evolution of the wave function, interference, and everything else.
 
  • #199
Anonym said:
What is called Fock space is defined by V.A.Fock and not by Eugene. It is clearly presented in every standard textbook on QT. The difference between the linear superposition and the direct sum also is clearly presented in every standard textbook on QT.

What is your definition of the Fock space and how it is different from mine? I always thought I was following the standard definition. I could be wrong, though.

Eugene.
 
  • #200
Anonym said:
If you know Russian (I do not believe that it is translated to English) I suggest reading 28 pages book written by V.A.Fock,”Quantum Physics and Structure of Matter”, Leningrad Univ. Press (1965) that definitely will help you to understand QF.

Dany,

Thank you for the reference. I would love to read this book. Yes, I can read Russian, as you can guess from my user name.

Eugene.
 
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