If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts

[hurryon]

Well, it is confusing the meaning of the quote, "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" by Albert Einstein.

Anyone knows the exact meaning of it?

 

[Pengwuino]

That really doesn't sound like something Einstein would say... or any serious physicist for that matter.

 

[Cyrus]

It's a joke hurryon.

 

[hurryon]

I just saw the quote in a textbook. Well, do you mean that the quote is not by Albert?

 

[Cyrus]

I just saw the quote in a textbook. Well, do you mean that the quote is not by Albert?

You and Albert are on a first name basis now?

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah it's probably a joke quote. Makes sense coming from the man who so profoundly changed our understanding of physics theoretically.

No not you cyrus.

 

[Cyrus]

Yah it's probably a joke quote. Makes sense coming from the man who so profoundly changed our understanding of physics theoretically.

Thank you cyrus.

You don't have to thank me.

 

[drizzle]

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It sounds like sarcasm and I can't find a source for the quote.

 

[cristo]

It's not necessarily a joke, or sarcasm. The quote could be interpreted as saying that if one's theory predicts something that hasn't been observed, one should go out and try to observe it (hence "change the facts" as we currently see them).

Obviously, I can't say for sure, but I severly doubt Einstein meant that one should literally change the facts! (Of course, without reference, there is nothing to say that the quote has been corrected attributed to Einstein.)

 

[Andre]

The quote is popularly attributed to Einstein only. It's been used -out of context(?)- when scientific fraud was suspected/apparent. Perhaps it relates to relativety features, "changing facts" like mass, time and dimensions.

There is also the Keynes changing fact quote with an apparent opposite meaning:

When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
- John Maynard Keynes

But this is very impopular, changing minds.

 

[russ_watters]

I just saw the quote in a textbook. Well, do you mean that the quote is not by Albert?

Could you tell us the name of the textbook and give some context to the quote?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

What he meant was that the fact that he didn't say it doesn't fit the theory that he did, so he is often quoted as having said it, but no one ever provides a source for it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

If Einstein was heard saying this, he was probably quoting Spinoza:

“If facts conflict with a theory, either the theory must be changed or the facts.”

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/benedict_spinoza/

I wasn't able to find the context in which Spinoza said it, though.

Here's the Wiki article on Spinoza:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

 

[ExactlySolved]

Quotes from Dirac:

I learned to distrust all physical concepts as the basis for a theory. Instead one should put one's trust in a mathematical scheme, even if the scheme does not appear at first sight to be connected with physics. One should concentrate on getting interesting mathematics.

This result is too beautiful to be false; it is more important to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit experiment.

It seems that Einstein was expressing a similar sentiment. What I find funny is that this idea is beyond the comprehension of this forum, since the majority opinion on string theory around here seems to be quite skeptical, even though the majority opinion of professional theorists is that string theory is is a correct description of physics beyond the standard model.

 

[rootX]

Quotes don't need to have a meaning.
Any particular meaning wouldn't change anything.

 

[neu]

"Facts" can sometimes be subjective, or rather person-relative.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Seventeen posts in, and we still don't know if Einstein even said this.

 

[Alfi]

Re: If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts

lol
my first thought was Bush and the Iraq war.

 

[Cyrus]

Re: If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts

lol
my first thought was Bush and the Iraq war.

Hah!

 

[Evo]

The quote did not come up in a search of the official Einstein Archives and it apparently has never been found to be said by Einstein.

Also Einstein has never been identified as the author of If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts, here, too, due to the inherent assertion, one cannot help having severe doubts. Therefore a quotation as inconsistent with Einstein’s real attitude as the one under discussion, should not be treated as an authentic statement

"Did Einsten Really Say It? By BARBARA WOLFF
People often misattribute famous quotes to Einstein or get it partially correct or partially wrong. This article examines 13 of some of the most popular quotes assigned to Einstein"

http://knol.google.com/k/anonymous/13-famous-quotes-of-Albert-einstein/3djcki7u2hhmj/2#

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

This article examines 13 of some of the most popular quotes assigned to Einstein"

I wish she had discussed this one as it is apparently controversial.

Much later, when I was discussing cosmological problems with Einstein, he remarked that the introduction of the cosmological term was the biggest blunder of his life.

George Gamow, My World Line, 1970

Edit: It is not controversial whether Gamow wrote it, but rather whether Einstein said it. Gamow was a noted prankster and I have heard skeptical remarks about this quote from more than one source.

 

[Evo]

I wish she had discussed this one as it is apparently controversial.

Uhm, she did, it was one she debunked. I showed her quotes. ? Did you not read it?

Also, I searched on the "quote" in the Official Einstein Archives, and the supposed quote is not there.

 

[Moonbear]

It's absolutely hilarious that someone would attribute this particular quote to the wrong person. What irony!

 

[hurryon]

Could you tell us the name of the textbook and give some context to the quote?

The textbook entitled ''The Art of Computer Systems Performance Analysis'' by Raj Jain involves the quote in the page 507.

 

[Hurkyl]

Just for fun, I would like to point out there is a valid interpretation of the quote.

Many (most? all?) facts about the physical world are synthetic -- raw sensory data gets processed¹ by the nervous system, and then reprocessed by our understanding of the physical world. For example, take the rather innocuous statement "the sun rose last morning" takes for granted things like the existence of the 'sun' as an object, a duration of 'time' called 'morning', a quality of 'motion' that can be called 'rising', the reliability of our methods for making that observation...

Sometimes, when synthesizing a fact, we presume too much...



1: And, of course, even this statement makes a lot of presumptions

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Uhm, she did, it was one she debunked. I showed her quotes. ? Did you not read it?

I read it and could not find it. Can you cut and paste that part for me. I found 13 (or 14 since two were bunched together) pseudo-quotes, but not that one.

Here are the ones I found. She was most unkind in making me dig so hard for them. I don't use the quote tag for the following because I have edited it slightly.

1. If the bee disappears off the surface of the globe, mankind will only have four years of life left: no bees, no pollination, no plants, no animals, no humans.

2. Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.

3. Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

4. Imagination is more important than knowledge.

5. The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.

6, 7. The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax. Compounded interest is more complicated than relativity theory.

8. Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

9. If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts

10. Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.

11. It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the part wrapped inside it.

12. The definition of insanity : doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

13. There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle.

14. Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.

 

[Chi Meson]

That was one poorly written article. Is that the actual Barbara Wolff article? or some cut and paste overview of it. With irritating punctuation, lack of paragraphs, abandonment of headers, poor segue and follow through, the damn thing's nearly unreadable. It's a college freshman level book report. First draft.

Edit: perhaps a bit cruel. It appears to be a poor "cut and paste." Line-by-line, the writing appears to be pretty good, but some punctuation is lost as are the paragraphs. Still, as a Master of Fine Arts in Literature and Creative Writing, I am offended!

Thus have I judged!

You may go.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Did BARBARA WOLFF Really Say It? I can find no confirmation other than the site linked to. Was it in a book, magazine, back of an envelope, second hand information? What?

 

[Moridin]

Just for fun, I would like to point out there is a valid interpretation of the quote.

Many (most? all?) facts about the physical world are synthetic -- raw sensory data gets processed¹ by the nervous system, and then reprocessed by our understanding of the physical world. For example, take the rather innocuous statement "the sun rose last morning" takes for granted things like the existence of the 'sun' as an object, a duration of 'time' called 'morning', a quality of 'motion' that can be called 'rising', the reliability of our methods for making that observation...

Sometimes, when synthesizing a fact, we presume too much...



1: And, of course, even this statement makes a lot of presumptions

As you implied, if many (most? all?) observations are theory-laden, than this observation would of course be equally theory-laden (as would this one).

 

[Nephyte]

I would guess off the top of my head he meant something like.

I have come up with a new Theory.

However, all the facts as we know them currently, or have observed through testing do not support my theory.

So therefore, I must come up with new experiments that will be able to be observed to fir the theory's framework.


Is that not afterall how Theory and scientific knowledge advances. We propose hypothesis and then test them and sometimes they challenge the current body of scientific knowledge?

 

[Moonbear]

Just for fun, I would like to point out there is a valid interpretation of the quote.

Many (most? all?) facts about the physical world are synthetic -- raw sensory data gets processed¹ by the nervous system, and then reprocessed by our understanding of the physical world. For example, take the rather innocuous statement "the sun rose last morning" takes for granted things like the existence of the 'sun' as an object, a duration of 'time' called 'morning', a quality of 'motion' that can be called 'rising', the reliability of our methods for making that observation...

Sometimes, when synthesizing a fact, we presume too much...



1: And, of course, even this statement makes a lot of presumptions

To maintain scientific rigor, more appropriate than saying to change the facts would be to say to reexamine the facts...and in particular, the data collection methods. Indeed, sometimes unintentional bias gets included in the design or interpretation of an experiment, and when the results are what were expected at a particular time, nobody may question whether the instrument was actually working right that day.