Solving the Dilemma of Moving Water Without External Energy

[CIVILian]

[SOLVED] Move that water!

Firstly g'day all, just had a glance through some of the topics and this seems like a fine forum.

Some of you may be able to help me with a little problem I've been juggling in my head for a couple of weeks.

Say I had a 1000 litre tank of water say one metre above the ground. At the bottom of the tank I have an outlet coming out the side of the tank, for instance a 50 mill PVC pipe.

Now, the problem I'm trying to overcome is, if I wanted to move as much of this water as possible to a higher location (higher than the outlet) into an inlet which is level with the top of the tank and about 2 metres away in horizontal distance, without using any additional energy except for the potential energy already in the tank and without the use of a syphon or pump or outside energy of any kind, how would I go about this?

Looking at it, to me logically, any pipe I connect to the outlet and up, well, I would only be able to get the water through the pressure in the tank , to the level of the top of the water. But I need it to go into the inlet which faces the tank but only the bottom lip of the inlet in level with the top of the tank.

I would usually be in the philosophical parts of this forum so am not quite the techincal man. Hopefully I've explained it clearly but if I haven't then say so and I'll try and whip up the scenario in paint or something.

Cheers!

 

[brewnog]

A picture would be good here! If you're trying to raise any water above the level that is at the surface of the water in the supply tank, you will need more than just a pipe. Perhaps a gravity pump would help? But yes, post a picture.

 

[Marijn]

Won't work.
The waterlevel in the tank it the same hight as the bottom of the target tank.
It would only level out ti'll the level is equal in the source tank and the target tank.
So in practice tou would probably only succede in getting a layer of about a cm in the target tank before the levels are in balance, that or nothing at all.

 

[brewnog]

But you *could* try a gravity pump!

 

[russ_watters]

Looking at it, to me logically, any pipe I connect to the outlet and up, well, I would only be able to get the water through the pressure in the tank , to the level of the top of the water. But I need it to go into the inlet which faces the tank but only the bottom lip of the inlet in level with the top of the tank.

With a siphon, you can lift the water higher than the level of the top of the water in the first tank (to get it over the top of the tank, for example) as long as it ends up below the level at the end of the hose. The final result is that you can't get the level in the second tank to be higher than the level in the 1st.

 

[Rogerio]

With a siphon, you can lift the water higher than the level of the top of the water in the first tank (to get it over the top of the tank, for example) as long as it ends up below the level at the end of the hose. The final result is that you can't get the level in the second tank to be higher than the level in the 1st.

It doesn't matter: even using a siphon he can't go above the level of the top of the water in the first tank.

If he could, then he could repeat this process whith a third tank, and so on...

 

[Artman]

But you *could* try a gravity pump!

This could work, if he doesn't need to move it fast, and he can get enough drop before the rise.


Gravity Pump

 

[russ_watters]

It doesn't matter: even using a siphon he can't go above the level of the top of the water in the first tank.

No, with a siphon, you can make the water go up - it just has to end up below the level of the water in the first tank. That's what a siphon is - its how you can siphon gas up and out of a gas tank.

 

[Rogerio]

No, with a siphon, you can make the water go up - it just has to end up below the level of the water in the first tank. That's what a siphon is - its how you can siphon gas up and out of a gas tank.

I don't care whether the siphon can go as high as I want, since the water inside it is useless for anyone. The point is how to get usable water (outside any siphons) in a second tank above the first one.
And the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, of course, but you will never get any water above the level of the first tank.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't care whether the siphon can go as high as I want, since the water inside it is useless for anyone.

Well, its useful if you're trying to steal gas from someone: the only other way to do with without a pump would be to flip the car upside down.

 

[Rogerio]

Well, its useful if you're trying to steal gas from someone: the only other way to do with without a pump would be to flip the car upside down.

I don't see how your car could use the fuel while it is INSIDE the siphon...

As I told you before, the point is how to get USABLE water (OUTSIDE any siphons) in a second tank above the first one.

And, once more, the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, of course, but you will NEVER get any water ABOVE THE LEVEL of the first tank.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't see how your car could use the fuel while it is INSIDE the siphon...

Fuel travels up and out of the gas tank through the siphon, then down into the container you are collecting it in. To make it work, the end of the siphon the gas comes out has to be lower than the level of gas in the car's tank. Look HERE and HERE

 

[brewnog]

Yes, but the container you're collecting it in can't be higher than your fuel tank!

 

[Marijn]

Say I had a 1000 litre tank of water say one metre above the ground. At the bottom of the tank I have an outlet coming out the side of the tank, for instance a 50 mill PVC pipe.

Now, the problem I'm trying to overcome is, if I wanted to move as much of this water as possible to a higher location (higher than the outlet) into an inlet which is level with the top of the tank and about 2 metres away in horizontal distance, without using any additional energy except for the potential energy already in the tank and without the use of a syphon or pump or outside energy of any kind, how would I go about this?

Yes, but the container you're collecting it in can't be higher than your fuel tank!

It is so even a syphon won't work.
In other words nothing will work, at least nothing that doesn't use external power to move the water.
Lik i said, the water will fill the pipe and stay there because the filling of the pipe will definitely lower the waterlevel below the bottom of the second container.

 

[Artman]

In other words nothing will work, at least nothing that doesn't use external power to move the water.

This is not a true statement. A gravity pump can move water to a higher point than the bottom of the water level without external power (except the kinetic energy of falling water). This is not against the laws of physics. It does it by using the falling water to move a little water to a higher point. They are highly inefficent (move only a small portion of the water that is dropped to a higher point), slow and waste water, but they can move water to a higher plane without external power. This is not psuedo-science, they are in use.

 

[Marijn]

Ok but that would require you to dump the water used to move the pump.
(same principle is used to boost the pressure in air tanks when there isn't a compressor around with suffcient capacity).
I did not take wasting water in my reasoning.

But your right, with sacreficing water you could be able to get some water in the 2nd tank.

 

[Rogerio]

Fuel travels up and out of the gas tank through the siphon, then down into the container you are collecting it in. To make it work, the end of the siphon the gas comes out has to be lower than the level of gas in the car's tank.

You are missing the most important: the level of the water at the second tank will NEVER be higher than the level at the first tank.
Take a careful look at THERE.

Again, the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, but you will NEVER get any water ABOVE THE LEVEL of the first tank.

I'm afraid you don't believe in this.

 

[Marijn]

You are missing the most important: the level of the water at the second tank will NEVER be higher than the level at the first tank.
Take a careful look at THERE.

Again, the truth is: using a siphon you can get water above the bottom of the first tank, but you will NEVER get any water ABOVE THE LEVEL of the first tank.

I'm afraid you don't believe in this.

As has been stated by several people already.

 

[russ_watters]

As has been stated by several people already.

...including me. Rogerio, it just seemed to me like you didn't understand what a siphon does. Its a small issue though, especially since it won't help with the problem posted at the beginning of the thread.

 

[Rogerio]

Oh, no! I'd had the same impression of you, russ_watters !
:-)

 

[Civilian2]

G'day all, sorry I haven't been back, but thanks for the big response. I'm on a different account because of a few techincal difficulties.

Just letting you all know, I still am interested in this. Perhaps if I post up a diagram you'll better envisage what I'm doing. Also, I want to do it in a short time, just getting as much water over as I can in 20 secondsish. The amount of waste water is not an issue.

I'll get around to doing the diagram tonight or tomorrow- sorry I'm heaps short on time at the moment.

The gravity pump looks good, but I'm not looking to spend that sort of money. Just the basic stuff I can get perhaps at the hardware warehouse.

Cheers.

 

[brewnog]

There are essentially two ways to overcome your problem.

The first is the aforementioned gravity pump. Once again, this is an inefficient, but viable method of raising a relatively small amount of water through a height. As has been established, siphons *will not* work for your application if water needs to end up at a higher point it started from. (Yes, we know how siphons work, and no, they can't supply water at a greater height).

The second is a powered pump you would be able to get at the hardware warehouse. If this is some kind of school project, the chances are they want you to build a crude gravity pump. There are few practical applications of gravity pumps. If you simply want to fill a higher tank, you can buy a small electric water pump for a few quid.

The only other thing I can think of is to use a sealed primary (lower) tank, and pressurise it.

 

[Marijn]

@brewnog

Again this is external power.
The challenge at hand is to NOT use external power.
Pressurising the first container would work for sure, it woul become a giant supersoaker.
Using pressure you'd be able to get the first container empty in just a few seconds, and depending on the pressure even quicker.

 

[brewnog]

If the challenge is to only use the potential energy held within the supply tank, and both tanks are at the same pressure, the only solution is the gravity pump after all. And if it *is* some kind of school challenge project, you can have fun making one!

 

[Marijn]

and if you can use pressure, check what pressure the container can withstand.
It would be fun to get around 2000 psi or higher behind it :surprise:
Than the challenge would be to keep it in the second container

N E way, good luck, and let us know how it turned out.

 

[Civilian2]

Cheers for all the help fellas.

I had been trying to think (admittedly I haven't done any calculations as such yet) of some sort of see-saw type contraption, where the pvc pipe runs between two containers and the water flows through the hollow pvc pipe to the far container then the pipe itself fills allowing the first container to fill and weigh down raising the other lighter one. I'd have to have some sort of spring system though to get it to pour into the inlet and also, I think the horizontal distance between outlet and inlet is not enough which would mean I would need a not-so-straight see-saw which I'm not entirely sure would work.

Here's a really poorly drawn diagram of the problem on paint as promised. (I only have a touch pad).

It looks like I'm going to have to learn how to concoct a crude gravity pump then?

EDIT: Dammit the image is to big for the allowed 400 x 400. I'm going to have to go and ask someone how to shrink it.

 

[Civilian2]

This is the problem in case my explanation hadn't been sufficient.

 

[brewnog]

Your see-saw idea will not work, sorry! You have to provide energy to the system to raise the water.

 

[Artman]

The see-saw idea can work if the water used for weight is dumped at the bottom of the see-saw motion, allowing the holder to rise for more.

I was thinking that a water wheel type arrangement could work, perhaps to turn a conveyor belt with cups attached to move water to the higher level. Again it would waste most of the water turning the water wheel, but it could work.

 

[Marijn]

Whitch would make it an even less efficient gravity pump.
Its easier to take an old turbo charger out of a car and make a gravity pump out of it.

 

[Artman]

Whitch would make it an even less efficient gravity pump.
Its easier to take an old turbo charger out of a car and make a gravity pump out of it.

The problem with a gravity pump may be having enough elevation on the suction side to make it work. He may have to use a less efficient yet direct acting method.

 

[LURCH]

Could you put an airtight lid over the top of the water in the tank, and place something really heavy on that lid, possibly held by a catch of some sort? Release the catch, and let the weight drop, pushing the water out of the bottom and up above the tank (provided the weight is heavier than the water in the tank).

 

[Artman]

Could you put an airtight lid over the top of the water in the tank, and place something really heavy on that lid, possibly held by a catch of some sort? Release the catch, and let the weight drop, pushing the water out of the bottom and up above the tank (provided the weight is heavier than the water in the tank).

I like that. A huge piston.

 

[Marijn]

@ lurch and Artman

Again this is external energy.
Being the weight of the lid and the stone (or whatever) on top of the lid.
The case is to NOT use external power.

 

[Civilian2]

Well, the unenthusiastic response to the see-saw idea has seen me cease to consider it. After much stewing last night I have another idea... though not sure if it'll work either. Plus I need to work out the flow rate of the water out of the tank which I haven't worked out how to do yet.

How about a piston type system. It has a problem though... I can't think how to make it work properly... hahaha

I've drawn a dodgy picture up. I don't see a problem filling both the pipe system and the bucket as i can have the pipe coming out of the outlet with a hole in the side, once the system fills with water then the water will come out the hole and bucket can begin to fill.

I am pretty sure though that it would be necessary to have the left piston start in the down position so, when the system is full, if I somehow make it come up (possibly a bucket on the other end of the beam (I wouldn't know how to fill it though... nor empty it...) and by coming up it would suck water up into the piston. The bucket on the left would then fill (mean while the water displaced from being sucked up by the piston would be replaced. The bucket will push the left piston down which would then force water up the vertical pipe.

I could actually make this work forever perhaps if I had two water sources and a way to make the buckets empty themselves...

But for htis project, I only need it to pump once- I'll be happy with that! Just SOME water!

Valves the vales are simply there so water can enter the system but not leave. Here's a rough copy. What do you think? Any suggestions on how to make such a system work?

 

[brewnog]

I think I understand what you're getting at, could you redo the diagram and show more clearly which pipes are connected to what, and which way your check valves operate?

 

[Artman]

@ lurch and Artman

Again this is external energy.
Being the weight of the lid and the stone (or whatever) on top of the lid.
The case is to NOT use external power.

I know it doesn't qualify. I still like it though.

 

[Marijn]

in that case the isdea of sealing it and blowing 2000 psi air on top is a helluve lot more fun :D

 

[BobG]

There is no way to do the job with no external energy. Do you mean no electrical/gasoline energy, perhaps?

Using weights to push the water through is a good idea, but I'd make a small improvement to it. Build two pistons, one on each side of a see-saw above the tanks. Hold the bowling balls (or cannon balls, or other incredibly heavy rolling objects since you're attempting to move 1000 kg of water) on the high side of the see-saw with a board. Remove the board, the balls roll to the low side, pushing the low piston and pulling the high piston (via torque) at the same time.

You hold one side of the see-saw high with a wedge. Lubricated rubber around a wooden disk should be sufficient for the pistons. You don't need a perfect vacuum, you just need the pressure to be very low in the high tank and very high in the low tank.

Oh, and be careful balancing that last bowling ball on the end of the see-saw. It can hurt your foot.

 

[Artman]

in that case the isdea of sealing it and blowing 2000 psi air on top is a helluve lot more fun :D

Absolutely! Of course it has to be done scientifically. Like counting the number of seconds it takes from the time the lid flies off till it strikes the ground (or a passerby) then calculating the height it achieved.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Your first post says something about not being able to use a siphon. But it has been discussed at length. Assuming you are permitted to use a siphon, your drawing is accurate, and contrary to popular discussion in this thread, you could move about half the water with a siphon. Just run the hose into both tanks all the way to the bottom. Assuming the hose was full of water when inserted it will level off the 2 tanks with half in each.

 

[BobG]

This is the problem in case my explanation hadn't been sufficient.

Yes, your explanation wasn't sufficient.

I have a question about the drawing in Post #27. Where does the water go after it goes into the inlet? If the eventual destination is below the first tank, then a siphon is the answer, provided you get a good seal between the pipe and inlet of the destination.

It makes no difference where the inlet is. The only thing that matters is where the water eventually winds up.

A siphon is a lot more boring than the other solutions proposed, however.

 

[Civilian2]

Averagesupernova and Bobg: No I can't use a syphon unfortunately.

Brewnog: Doing a better diagram is difficult because the forum only allows me to draw in a 400x400 canvas. The red arrows show the direction of the flow, the valves stop the water going back the other way- out of the system.
PVC pipe coming out of the water tank outlet would be fed into the inlet in my 'gizmo' via the bucket. This pipe would have a hole in the side so when the system is full, water will spew out the side which would then enter the bucket, weighing it down.
When the piston is pushed down by the bucket, water would be pushed through the lower of the two bottom horizontal pipes (I drew them above each other for diagram purposes but in reality they would both be on the ground) and up the vertical pipe that I have labelled outlet into the collecting inlet. (not in the gizmo diagram but in the original problem diagram).

Bobg: I'm not attempting to move 1000 kg of water. I'm trying to move as much water as possibly in 20-30 seconds. 10 mL would be enough! As long as I could move some! At the moment, I'm doubting whether I"m going to manage 1mL.
Using bowling balls, I think I'd be using the gravitational potential of the balls, rather than the water which would defeat the purpose of the exercise.

Does my system look feasible? I just want to move SOME water. I don't want to buy all the materials to find it doesn't work, and I don't really know how to work it out theoretically.

 

[BobG]

First, the drawing problem. I did mine in power point, and then copied the picture into Paint. Just about every computer has that program installed on their computer when they buy it.

If you have paint, once you copy your picture into it, select "Image", then "Attributes". Change your units to pixels. That shows you the size of your picture.

Mine was about 716x496. Not wishing to spend a lot of time on this, I just shrunk it by half. Select "Image", then "Stretch/Skew". 'Stretch' both the horizontal and the vertical by 50%. The result is a 358x248 picture, small enough to past on the board. The picture probably has to be saved as a GIF or the file size will be too big (this might mess up your colors, but that's life).

Second, I think your general idea with the bucket might be close (it's always hard to visualize your explanation). If you look at the bowling ball picture, you could reverse the angle of the see-saw (empty tank lower - full tank higher) and hang an empty bucket or series of buckets from the high side. You'd need two outlets from the full tank. One to fill the buckets - as the bucket became full and began to lower the see-saw, the next bucket would drop low enough to be filled, and so on. The other outlet is connected to a pipe or hose so the water can be drawn through by the lowering pressure on the empty tank.

If the water will flow out of the full tank into the bucket(s), it's going to lower the pressure, forcing the piston down (plus the force of the extra weight in the bucket from the water), but getting the water to start flowing out of the outlet in the first place might be a problem - something has to displace the volume of the water leaving the outlet. I'm thinking at least some air will run into the outlet to get the water started, and once the whole piston scheme has been set into motion, the water flow increases and you have no further problems.

It might just be better to leave the top of the full tank open and rely solely on the piston creating a low pressure in the empty tank.

Edit: Obviously, both tanks are going to have to be elevated so the buckets have room to lower.

 

[Civilian2]

Oh I see what you are getting at Bobg. My piston idea involved pistons entirely separate from the tanks, not turning the tank into a massive piston. I might find it difficult to get an airtight disc to fit the tank itself perfectly. But I like the idea. I've got a mate of mine calculating the water flow rate etc, and friction in the pipes etc which should make this easier to develop.

I'll have a hard think about this this evening.

As for my first piston idea though I am beginning to think it will be impossible for me to get the piston to first rise and suck water into the piston before the bucket fills and pumps it down so I am considering alternatives. I have started to consider that I don't need to fill the piston with water at all. If I have large volume in my piston and a very small volume in the pipe which is full of water, then perhaps even though the air into piston would compress, it would still be able to force water through the pipe and up into the higher tank.

I've also realized that I can create larger images if I don't upload them to this site, but upload them elsewhere and link them. So I'll get around to doing that.

Again I appreciate the help mate. Lol, I found it quite funny that you put a man in your bowling ball graphic haha. Are you sure that's where I'm meant to stand when it all happens?

 

[LURCH]

Something I've not seen mentioned yet, can you use the weight of the tank itself? Maybe the water could be drained into a narrow tube, and the weight of the (now empty) tank could press down on that tube, forcing the water up.

 

[Random]

Hydraulic Ram Pumps

I'm not attempting to move 1000 kg of water. I'm trying to move as much water as possibly in 20-30 seconds. 10 mL would be enough! As long as I could move some! At the moment, I'm doubting whether I"m going to manage 1mL.

I had thought this was some sort of logic impossi-puzzle until I read this. Your answer is a hydraulic ram (sold as a "Platypump" in Australia). These devices are not very efficient but are excellent for raising water well beyond the supplied head pressure. For every 10 volumes of water past the pump, 1 volume can be raised to approximately 100 times the supply head pressure. (Great for topping a tank from a lower creek etc.) Hope this helps. Google search the hydraulic ram & you will find plans etc enabling you to build your own for only a few dollars.

 

[brewnog]

Yup, that's a gravity pump!

 

[Artman]

I had thought this was some sort of logic impossi-puzzle until I read this. Your answer is a hydraulic ram (sold as a "Platypump" in Australia). These devices are not very efficient but are excellent for raising water well beyond the supplied head pressure. For every 10 volumes of water past the pump, 1 volume can be raised to approximately 100 times the supply head pressure. (Great for topping a tank from a lower creek etc.) Hope this helps. Google search the hydraulic ram & you will find plans etc enabling you to build your own for only a few dollars.

My only worry with either a Ram or other form of gravity pump is that there is not enough height to provide enough head pressure to produce adequate results. Some of the head pressure is lost to operating the pump mechanisms. If the suction side is large enough for a large mass to drop a short distance to move a small mass a longer distance perhaps it could work.

 

[brewnog]

But in this case, even getting a tiny amount of water raised would be considered an "adequate result" by Civilian, - see his earlier posts.