What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

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  • Thread starter nismaratwork
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In summary, the protests in Egypt are continuing and there are reports of violence and fires. The situation is not looking good for the government.
  • #771
nismaratwork said:
... so maybe they really DO think that conflict with Israel would help to calm tensions at home and elsewhere.

That’s the usual "brainless medicine" for violent dictators in crisis...
 
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  • #772
Proton Soup, are you there? This video shows exactly my 'worries'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali" has personal experiences from MB and Islam. Yes, maybe she is a (right-wing?) "scarecrow" lady, but it’s risky to ignore her experiences completely...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D57a8j0P3Ss

(If you’re having country/copyright problems: http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2011/02/09/exp.ac.muslim.brotherhood.cnn.html" )

Besides, Dr. Essam El Erian (MB spokesman) was interviewed on CNN today and asked about the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty, and he didn’t give a straight answer... talking about "domestic problem"...

Not reassuring.
 
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  • #773
nismaratwork said:
Well I can tell you how that story ends if it isn't just posturing. Maybe Iran wants to lose more centrifuges, AND have 2 vessels sunk by submarines? I don't understand the leadership, so maybe they really DO think that conflict with Israel would help to calm tensions at home and elsewhere. It's sick, but it could work.

What if they do want to lose a ship - claim the US did it or approved it? I see two "positive" results for them - restrict a shipping lane (higher oil prices) and re-invigorate anti-US and Israel sentiments in Tehran.
 
  • #774
WhoWee said:
What if they do want to lose a ship - claim the US did it or approved it? I see two "positive" results for them - restrict a shipping lane (higher oil prices) and re-invigorate anti-US and Israel sentiments in Tehran.

Exactly... and damned chillling.

It seems that the Bahraini police have decided they'd rather crack down than risk a Saudi incursion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12490286

BBC said:
Security forces in Bahrain have moved into Pearl Square in the centre of capital, Manama, trying to disperse thousands of anti-government protesters.

Hundreds of riot police using tear gas and batons moved into the square before dawn on Thursday.

The protesters are calling for wide-ranging political reforms and have been camped out for three days.

Clashes earlier in the week left two dead and dozens injured in the country.

Ibrahim Sherif of the Waad party told the BBC that the police had acted without any warning.

EDIT: ADDITION:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/16/bahrain.protests/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
Video, and a decent article. This is getting ugly.
 
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  • #775
DevilsAvocado said:
Proton Soup, are you there? This video shows exactly my 'worries'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali" has personal experiences from MB and Islam. Yes, maybe she is a (right-wing?) "scarecrow" lady, but it’s risky to ignore her experiences completely...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D57a8j0P3Ss

(If you’re having country/copyright problems: http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2011/02/09/exp.ac.muslim.brotherhood.cnn.html" )

Besides, Dr. Essam El Erian (MB spokesman) was interviewed on CNN today and asked about the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty, and he didn’t give a straight answer... talking about "domestic problem"...

Not reassuring.

i'm here, now. not quite caught up with what is going on, tho.

look, i don't know what you want from me on this. i understand people are scared about it, and i understand why. but i think you simply have to let it happen, and give it a chance. let people decide what they want. if they want to go medieval, then i think things will get really bad for them, especially economically. and if they decide they want to give the israelis a bloody nose, then they will get their heads smashed. otoh, if they want a better life, with a better economy, freedom of expression, and freedom from rape and sexual humiliation by government-hired goons, then the possibility exists that a majority of muslims will learn to interpret islam in a way that the west finds a lot less scary. but you're never going to get there by keeping them barefoot and pregnant and living in fear. sure, there will be some religious elements in there that you don't like, but so what? what do you think the US was like 200 years ago?

the alternative is pretty bleak, and i'd suggest it'd even involve the west turning its back on its own ideals and meting out some medievality of its own. fwiw, our economics aren't looking so good either atm, and the prospects of peak oil will only add to the sense of panic.
 
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  • #777
What do you guys think the chances are this type of stuff spreads to some of the closer to Europe country's like Turkey?
 
  • #778
Containment said:
What do you guys think the chances are this type of stuff spreads to some of the closer to Europe country's like Turkey?

It's already starting up in Italy.
 
  • #779
Containment said:
What do you guys think the chances are this type of stuff spreads to some of the closer to Europe country's like Turkey?

I don't know. I just want to know if I can call in sick tomorrow and survive in bed under the covers for the next two years.

:frown:

pfithinkillstayinbedtoday201102162124.jpg


I'm starting to have mixed feelings about all this.

Who's been watching the coop for the last 50 years?
 
  • #780
How should President Obama now respond to these seekers of freedom? What is his message to the people in the street - today?

President Obama's Cairo speech:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html

"So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one."

Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average.

Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it.

So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity.

Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all.

For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings.

This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to serve their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; progress must be shared."
 
  • #781
WhoWee said:
How should President Obama now respond to these seekers of freedom? What is his message to the people in the street - today?

Be peaceful.
 
  • #782
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  • #783
Char. Limit said:
It's already starting up in Italy.

What!? The teenage disco!?

berlusconi-ruby-porco-480x370.jpg
 
  • #784
DevilsAvocado said:
Be peaceful.

After telling them this?

"We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one.""

Perhaps that's all he needs to say? But, I think people (now) standing in harm's way might find that ... trite?
 
  • #785
WhoWee said:
Perhaps that's all he needs to say? But, I think people (now) standing in harm's way might find that ... trite?

Well, I think that Muslims has brains too... and understands that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiRQypcldG8"...
 
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  • #787
Proton Soup said:
but i think you simply have to let it happen, and give it a chance.

I understand... the world is full of democratic Islamic states, so chance is good... :wink:

Proton Soup said:
but you're never going to get there by keeping them barefoot and pregnant and living in fear.

Agree! :approve:

Proton Soup said:
what do you think the US was like 200 years ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FatHLHG2uGY&NR" 1,200 YEARS AGO our Vikings had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before they went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down runestone mill, and pay runestone mill owner for permission to come to work, and when they got home, their dad’s and mother’s would kill them and dance about on their graves singing Hallelujah. :grumpy:

30xc1tw.gif


And watch out! The http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsntHcWiy4" has returned in Berlin! :biggrin:

Proton Soup said:
our economics aren't looking so good either atm, and the prospects of peak oil will only add to the sense of panic.

True. The only thing missing is Sarah Palin for President and we will have great fireworks...
 
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  • #788
WhoWee said:
Right...Four dead students at Kent State was the limit in the US - what is the limit in North Africa and the Middle East?
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0504.html

You must also count all beaten, tortured, raped, missing, killed; during 30+ years to get the right 'balance'...
 
  • #789
DevilsAvocado said:
You must also count all beaten, tortured, raped, missing, killed; during 30+ years to get the right 'balance'...

Let me be very specific. Protestors in the US had the protection of the laws of the US.
 
  • #790
Hmmmm, I think it's worth noting the USA foreign policy became rather difficult for others at the time of our Revolution. A good outcome doesn't mean that any of us will be alive to see it, our children, or THEIR children.

This isn't new in the Middle East... it truly is REVOLUTION, in that it continues endlessly. Populism arrives, expands, revolts, and then is subverted... rinse... repeat. A Shah, an Ayatollah, or just plan Warlords... it all feels like a system exchanging heat without meaning until it reaches a maximum entropy: dead.
 
  • #791
Law of conservation of 'energy'...
 
  • #792
DevilsAvocado said:
Law of conservation of 'energy'...

True, but the system as a whole becomes disorded and as creatures bopping along with the thermodynamic arrow of time... diffuse radiation = as good as destroyed.
 
  • #793
nismaratwork said:
True, but the system as a whole becomes disorded and as creatures bopping along with the thermodynamic arrow of time... diffuse radiation = as good as destroyed.

Is it wise to encourage these creatures to become disordered - instead of bopping along?
 
  • #794
nismaratwork said:
the thermodynamic arrow of time... diffuse radiation = as good as destroyed.

True, but the 'direction' of entropy is also dependent on gravity = money :biggrin:
 
  • #795
DevilsAvocado said:
True, but the 'direction' of entropy is also dependent on gravity = money :biggrin:

Gravity is the ultimate... just ask a dying star (past its Chandrasekhar limit of course).
 
  • #796
WhoWee said:
Is it wise to encourage these creatures to become disordered - instead of bopping along?

Given what we're seeing, and given a practical and utterly unemotional and dispassionate (evil by some standards) view... no. It's clearly in the US national interest to maintain order in the region until it can be abandoned.

How that can be squared with our desire to be the "good guys" though... I don't know. You're talking to someone who believed that Iraq was doing its job as a buffer between Iran and Israel. I take a VERY practical view on one hand, but on the other... I can only maintain that dispassion for so long before it breaks down.
 
  • #797
nismaratwork said:
Gravity is the ultimate... just ask a dying star (past its Chandrasekhar limit of course).

Lady Gaga?

http://snafublog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GRAMMYS-LADY-GAGA-EGG-3.jpg
 
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  • #798
WhoWee said:
Let me be very specific. Protestors in the US had the protection of the laws of the US.

I’m just guessing... but wasn’t this a slightly 'different' situation... all presidents involved in the (horrific) Vietnam War was elected in a fair and democratic way... and then things went haywire...

Most of the people in the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades.
 
  • #799
DevilsAvocado said:
Lady Gaga?

http://snafublog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GRAMMYS-LADY-GAGA-EGG-3.jpg

:rofl:

And we wonder why the Arab world is afraid of our "culture". :wink:


Still, on a serious note, Libyans are dying, Bahrain has absolutely cracked down, and Yemen is heading toward Chaos.

The first... I would argue is best served by a revolution. The second is a Shiite population angry at their Sunni royal family... see Iran. Yemen... now THAT is the new Somalia people have been afraid of... anyone who thinks Yemen can't get worse is going to be unpleasantly surprised I think.
 
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  • #800
DevilsAvocado said:
I’m just guessing... but wasn’t this a slightly 'different' situation... all presidents involved in the (horrific) Vietnam War was elected in a fair and democratic way... and then things went haywire...

Most of the people in the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades.

Translation - the US protestors had a right to protest and were protected by the laws of the US. The exception being when they resorted to violence and bombing of Government buildings - then they were subject to the criminal laws of the US - and again protected by their rights in the legal process - no gulags.

The protestors in "the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades" have no expectaion of protection under similar rights - many could face death.
 
  • #801
WhoWee said:
Translation - the US protestors had a right to protest and were protected by the laws of the US. The exception being when they resorted to violence and bombing of Government buildings - then they were subject to the criminal laws of the US - and again protected by their rights in the legal process - no gulags.

The protestors in "the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades" have no expectaion of protection under similar rights - many could face death.

Yes, but at the same time – not one Egypt protester has been killed by the military...

I must be stupid... I don’t understand your point...
 
  • #802
WhoWee said:
Translation - the US protestors had a right to protest and were protected by the laws of the US. The exception being when they resorted to violence and bombing of Government buildings - then they were subject to the criminal laws of the US - and again protected by their rights in the legal process - no gulags.

The protestors in "the Arabic world have been living under dictatorial suppression for decades" have no expectaion of protection under similar rights - many could face death.

I think you're underestimating the history of police action in the US... attack dogs, rubber bullets at PBR, and CS gas are a hard way to meet peaceful protests. See John Silber for instance, but you know what, a better example would be the civil rights movement. There, you had no recognition of rights, and an active push to keep them from legal recognition.

As for gulags, no we don't do that, we intern people during times of war, and even our "sweetness and light" president Obama isn't rushing to shut down Gitmo.

edit: That is one example... Stonewall might be another.
 
  • #803
nismaratwork said:
I think you're underestimating the history of police action in the US... attack dogs, rubber bullets at PBR, and CS gas are a hard way to meet peaceful protests. See John Silber for instance, but you know what, a better example would be the civil rights movement. There, you had no recognition of rights, and an active push to keep them from legal recognition.

As for gulags, no we don't do that, we intern people during times of war, and even our "sweetness and light" president Obama isn't rushing to shut down Gitmo.

edit: That is one example... Stonewall might be another.

Have it your way - the US is no different than anywhere else:uhh: - go ahead and encourage people to protest in places where there is no expectation of protection by law. Afterall -it's their freedom at stake - maybe a few of them sould take one for the cause?
 
  • #804
WhoWee said:
Have it your way - the US is no different than anywhere else:uhh: - go ahead and encourage people to protest in places where there is no expectation of protection by law. Afterall -it's their freedom at stake - maybe a few of them sould take one for the cause?

That's not my point... I'm just saying that chanting about how special we are isn't what gets us there, we actually need to ACT. In the end, someone always does exactly what you say, they die, anothe comes along, and eventually wins. It can be violent, peaceful, or anything in between, but it's inevitable.

You think that people under Ghaddafi don't realize they're risking their lives just by showing up at a protest? Not just their lives either, but their family, friends... Libya does not play. This is what happens when we want freedom for ourselves at the cost of freedom for others. When we help, we expect gratitude and forgiveness... sometimes that works (Japan, Germany), but often it ends badly.

We're just "UK-Junior" right now, left with the consequences of a the British Empire (and French, and others), and instead of learning from history, we are actually following in their footsteps. LITERALLY... to Afghanistan.

edit: a LOT will and are taking for "the cause", whatever that is. That's how it works here, and that's how it works elsewhere. We're just not dealing with nation-rending issues anymore, just nation-rending DRAMA.
 
  • #805
"We" have "acted" - that is my point - what do "we" do now? These people don't have the protections afforded US citizens - this is not a group of people wanting a landlord to fix the heat (IMO). Words matter and actions have consequences (again, IMO).


WhoWee said:
How should President Obama now respond to these seekers of freedom? What is his message to the people in the street - today?

President Obama's Cairo speech:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html

"So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one."

Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average.

Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it.

So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity.

Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all.

For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings.

This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to serve their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; progress must be shared."
 

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