Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[AntonL]

caption contest :(
Crane Crane, reactor open lid ?

What's the crane on the right (north) doing there ?

Please guys - next I am going to ask what is this brick doing here

 

[AntonL]

Radical move suggested by Kyodo News:

URGENT: Gov't eyes injecting nitrogen into reactor vessels to prevent blasts

TOKYO, April 1, Kyodo

"The government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. are considering injecting nitrogen into containment vessels of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant's reactors to prevent hydrogen explosions, government sources said Friday."

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82625.html

considering the situation it does not make sense, the N2 will only replace steam, and future steam from RV will replace N2 ...

 

[TCups]

Please guys - next I am going to ask what is this brick doing here

Sorry, Anton. I can't follow easily if you don't reference the picture you are referring to. Which post number of Freds? Copy the link to the "bricks" photo?

 

[timeasterday]

Sorry, Anton. I can't follow easily if you don't reference the picture you are referring to. Which post number of Freds? Copy the link to the "bricks" photo?

I think that he is saying "stop it guys with all the speculation and photo examinations."

I have a headache from looking at all this stuff over the past week and am done squinting at photos until more info comes out. Until someone gets some eyes up close to this stuff (camera/robot eyes preferred) we can just go on speculating forever and not accomplish much.

 

[TCups]

THE BLAST AT BLDG 3

OK, this fits. The fuel handling machine went ballistic.

The camera angle for the video is from the south-southwest (green arrow).

The blast is from the southeast corner (over the SFP3)

The large heavy debris in the video does a back flip over the tower, coming down to the left of the tower, and smacking the north west corner of Bldg 3.

I again propose that the heavy debris was the green fuel handling machine, and I cannot dismiss that if it were hooked onto a single spent fuel rod assembly that was in the process of being uploaded for dry cask storage when the quake hit, that the FHM it took one with it on its ballistic trajectory (dark green parabola).

Refute it!

here is the video again

http://video.ft.com/v/825918290001/Fukushima-nuclear-plant-explosion

And here is a shot showing the direction of the wind after the blast, which also fits.

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33860&d=1301658258

and here is what may be green fuel handling machine wreckage near the rod-like stuff at the north end of building 3

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/64f1c409.jpg

and here is a wide angle shot of the entire complex showing a 4th tower at Units 5, 6 confirming the camera angle I suggest.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/WideAngleShot.png

Someone show me something that doesn't fit, please.

 

[shogun338]

considering the situation it does not make sense, the N2 will only replace steam, and future steam from RV will replace N2 ...

With the bubbler pool gone, a meltdown was less likely to produce a powerful steam explosion. To do so, the molten core would now have to reach the water table below the reactor. To reduce the likelihood of this, it was decided to freeze the Earth beneath the reactor, which would also stabilize the foundations. Using oil drilling equipment, the injection of liquid nitrogen began on 4 May. It was estimated that 25 metric tons of liquid nitrogen per day would be required to keep the soil frozen at −100 °C.[6]:59 This idea was soon scrapped and the bottom room where the cooling system would have been installed was filled with concrete. This is from the Chernobyl disaster . So they may be trying to do the same thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

 

[TCups]

I think that he is saying "stop it guys with all the speculation and photo examinations."

I have a headache from looking at all this stuff over the past week and am done squinting at photos until more info comes out. Until someone gets some eyes up close to this stuff (camera/robot eyes preferred) we can just go on speculating forever and not accomplish much.

Close your eyes, then. I intend to keep looking and trying to figure out what happened, though. Sorry.

 

[TCups]

and here is what may be green fuel handling machine wreckage near the rod-like stuff at the north end of building 3

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/64f1c409.jpg

and here is a wide angle shot of the entire complex showing a 4th tower at Units 5, 6 confirming the camera angle I suggest.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/WideAngleShot.png

Someone show me something that doesn't fit, please.

Does it look like something falling could have totally crushed the northeast corner of Bldg 3 with most of the damage directed downward? How did the damage to the building below happen? I think this is impact damage from above.

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33768&stc=1&d=1301565672

Refute it, please.

 

[timeasterday]

Close your eyes, then. I intend to keep looking and trying to figure out what happened, though. Sorry.

No problem, please keep going. I didn't mean any offense. Glad to see you are thinking the fuel handling equipment went over to the north side as I suggested a while back.

 

[AntonL]

FROM WHERE WAS THE VIDEO OF THE EXPLOSION OF UNIT 3 TAKEN?

I cannot resolve the problem.
...
What angle, taken from the land, would put a tower aligned to the north end of Bldg 3?

What time of day in the northern hemisphere would put the south face of the buildings in shadow?

[

@TCups - maybe this will help and time of day 11:01AM the time the explosion occured

a 500mm telephoto lense has a field of view of 5degrees and explosion video is heavy telephoto as no colour definition,

 

[TCups]

@TCups - maybe this will help

a 500mm telephoto lense has a field of view of 5degrees and explosion video is heavy telephoto as no colour definition,

OK, that analysis fits pretty darned well compared to my earlier guesstimate:

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33874&d=1301669768

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33875&d=1301672183

Even the shadow on the south side of Bldg 4 lines up.Here are a couple of additional questions for critical analysis by someone who knows and can critically analyze photos for that sort of thing, Anton:

Do the size, number and distribution of the rod like objects in this photo fit the description of the number of 4 meter x 3 cm (roughly?) individual fuel rods that might be in a single fuel rod assembly?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/64f1c409.jpg

Does it make sense that a flying fuel handling machine would drag an attached single fuel rod assembly behind like the tail of a kite and that the fuel rod assembly would smash open on top of the bulk of the FHM as the FHM impacts the building?

Do the girders about the proposed NE corner impact site look to be bent downwards vs the upward and outward bending at the blast site on the SE corner?

 

[Joe Neubarth]

Radical move suggested by Kyodo News:

URGENT: Gov't eyes injecting nitrogen into reactor vessels to prevent blasts

TOKYO, April 1, Kyodo

"The government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. are considering injecting nitrogen into containment vessels of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant's reactors to prevent hydrogen explosions, government sources said Friday."

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82625.html

Assuming that the melted reactor core is on the other side of the reactor bottom, what kind of stress fractures could the injection of liquid nitrogen into the reactor containment vessel add to all the other Cluster Fukushima things that have happened?

 

[TCups]

RE: EARLIER REPORT OF A FALLING CRANE AT BLDG 3?

Just for info: it seems the french IRSN is no more publishing any daily report... The last one is from 29 th of March!
http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_presse/Actualites/Pages/201103_situation_au_japon.aspx#1

WHY?

jlduh:

was it one of these earlier reports that described the "crane" falling at the north end of Bldg. 3? I think it was, and perhaps I didn't get an accurate translation. Any additional info you could provide would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[PRDan4th]

There is a huge hole in the turbine building directly seaward from unit #3. Is this a possible location that the heavy item rejected in the explosion of #3, and could it lead to finding higher rad levels in the turbine buildings?

 

[TCups]

THE BLAST AT BLDG 3 - DID THE FHM GO BALLISTIC?

Here, again, is a good shot of the green fuel handling machine and an attached fuel rod assembly posted earlier by timeasterday, post# 2264

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33819&d=1301603739

And here is the damage at the north side of Bldg 3 with a lot of green debris and the rod-like objects in the center of the "crater". This from the hi-res fly-over photos uplinked by Fred.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/FHMCrater.png

and finally, here is a screen shot from the video, Photoshop'ed (using Image/Adjustments/AutoColor) from this video: http://video.ft.com/v/825918290001/Fukushima-nuclear-plant-explosion

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Falling-FHM.jpg

I propose this is a picture of the FHM as it falls, just before striking the north side of Bldg 3.

 

[etudiant]

RE: EARLIER REPORT OF A FALLING CRANE AT BLDG 3?



jlduh:

was it one of these earlier reports that described the "crane" falling at the north end of Bldg. 3? I think it was, and perhaps I didn't get an accurate translation. Any additional info you could provide would be helpful. Thanks.

The most recent posting from the IRSN dated Mar 31 says that because the situation has stabilized, they will issue bulletins only as events require in the future.

This may be a hopeful sign.

 

[dave2004]

Thanks again to all for the extremely interesting discussions of facts here, it looks like this is an island of sanity on the web...

I went through a bunch of pages here, but could not find anything again about the Pu that was measured. Has the situation evolved?

I also found an interesting paper about toxicity of Pu which is interesting to read:
http://barryonenergy.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/a-perspective-on-the-dangers-of-plutonium/
published by LLNL in 1995

 

[sp2]

THE BLAST AT BLDG 3 - DID THE FHM GO BALLISTIC?

Here, again, is a good shot of the green fuel handling machine and an attached fuel rod assembly posted earlier by timeasterday, post# 2264

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33819&d=1301603739

And here is the damage at the north side of Bldg 3 with a lot of green debris and the rod-like objects in the center of the "crater". This from the hi-res fly-over photos uplinked by Fred.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/FHMCrater.png

and finally, here is a screen shot from the video, Photoshop'ed (using Image/Adjustments/AutoColor) from this video: http://video.ft.com/v/825918290001/Fukushima-nuclear-plant-explosion

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Falling-FHM.jpg

I propose this is a picture of the FHM as it falls, just before striking the north side of Bldg 3.

TCups--

I had doubted your hypothesis, but that last screen-grab is very convincing.
That does indeed look like something big, and long, and green tumbling down towards the north end of the building.

I do still have doubts that that would've produced all the massive damage seen on the north and north-east of the building.
I'd probably tend to think that some of it was already blown to hell before the FHM landed on it.
And I still have a hard time believing that an attached fuel-rod bundle could have stayed even somewhat intact through that explosion, trajectory, and impact --but what the heck do I know?

 

[shogun338]

Tepco May Use Floating Island To Hold Tainted Water. http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110401D01JFF02.htm

 

[Astronuc]

IAEA has monitoring teams in Japan, so hopefully they will provide independent assessments of radioactivity.

Further evacuations a possibility
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Further_evacuations_a_possibility_3103111.html
31 March 2011

Various agencies outside of Japan seem to indicate the situation has been more or less stabilized.

Update:

Tepco's plans for water issues
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Tepcos_plans_for_water_issues_0104112.html
01 April 2011

Engineers have plans to deal with contaminated water at the Fukushima Daiichi site, although enacting them will take time. New water storage and treatment facilities are planned for construction.

 

[tc2468]

http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201104/0401014-thumb450x.jpg
Fukushima nuclear plant
Handout photo taken by a camera attached to the tip of the arm of a concrete squeeze pump shows inside the broken building housing the No. 4 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station in Fukushima Prefecture on March 24, 2011. Steam is seen rising from around a fuel-handling crane (top L, green). The pump's 50-meter arm has been used to pour water into the spent fuel pool of the reactor as part of efforts to get the crippled plant under control. (Photo courtesy of Tokyo Electric Power Co.) (Kyodo)

http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/2011/04/82477.html

 

[shogun338]

IAEA has monitoring teams in Japan, so hopefully they will provide independent assessments of radioactivity.

Further evacuations a possibility
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Further_evacuations_a_possibility_3103111.html
31 March 2011

Various agencies outside of Japan seem to indicate the situation has been more or less stabilized.

On 1 April, Prime Minister Naoto Kan admitted that the plant had not yet been "sufficiently stabilised", acknowledging it would be a "long-term battle". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12933010

 

[|Fred]

..

Thank you Tc it was reported and analysed earlier today https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3223197&postcount=2362
and the actual picture is kind of old news and has been discussed several pages ago (I know it's moving fast)

Gunderson, is in my opinion mistaken and miss lead by the viewing angle and the lens (very wide angle introducing lost of deformation), I actually sent him a letter to tell him.

The fuel handling crane is slightly into the pool but mostly above and the top of rod should be one floor bellow
Top view (mind the perspective)
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201104/0401014-thumb450x.jpg
Horizontal view with less distortion (posted several pages ago)
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/iknNEA.jpg

 

[hbjon]

Thanks again to all for the extremely interesting discussions of facts here, it looks like this is an island of sanity on the web...

I went through a bunch of pages here, but could not find anything again about the Pu that was measured. Has the situation evolved?

I also found an interesting paper about toxicity of Pu which is interesting to read:
http://barryonenergy.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/a-perspective-on-the-dangers-of-plutonium/
published by LLNL in 1995

An interesting article Dave, thanks for posting. The author has a phd and seems to have done all his homework. After reading through it carefully, I had this strange idea on who could have carried out the required experiments on humans to see how lethal a dose one needs of Pu or anything else. It diverted my attention, and made me somewhat skepticle. Can anyone find results of animal experimentation? Or is that too inhumane? If one needs to know how poisons affect life, unfortunately, they would have to experiment on the living. Perhaps an antidote could be developed.

 

[|Fred]

I kind of tried to figure how much a micro particle of Pu would dose you in an other post
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=485732

2332 Bq a day alpha decay from there I was kind of stuck to get a dose equivalent

edit: did not notice astroduc edit.. my calculation need to be adjusted according to the provided pdf .. but Its out of my leap

 

[tc2468]

interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL]

 

[hoyrylollaaja]

interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL][/QUOTE]

Posted and discussed several pages back already.

 

[rhody]

interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL][/QUOTE]

edit:
Nice find tc2468, and by the previous poster, man you guys are fast ! I am wondering with the growing mass of evidence and data available in this thread if the top posters (see thumbnail below), awesome job BTW you guys, would like to create your own .pdf file with a reactor by reactor best guess damage assessment of reactor, inner and outer containment structure.

You guys seem to have almost all the pieces of the puzzle and have been beating each other up in an attempt to reach honest consensus, a great thing IMHO. I for one would like to thank you all for the countless hours you have spent in this worthy endeavor. Many thanks Astronuc and Borek for keeping this thread alive, on track and vibrant with new content. That's why I love this place and continue to come back for more, it is because of folks (for the most part new) like you.

Rhody... :biggrin: :cool: :approve:

 

[SredniVashtar]

After reading through it carefully, I had this strange idea on who could have carried out the required experiments on humans to see how lethal a dose one needs of Pu or anything else. It diverted my attention, and made me somewhat skepticle.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/12/12/reviews/991212.12sherryt.html

 

[timeasterday]

Reports of a "blue flashing light." Not sure where they got this news or if there's any proof.