God releases Satan ? Why God allow Evil to exist?

[ProtractedSilence]

olde drunk, I don't think you thought about the implications of the alternative you present.

Look at the situation this way:

God creates man with free will. Man chooses to use his free will to reject God and what God says is good, both in the absolute sense and what is good for people coming from their designer. We chose the misery, but God had to accept that as a possibility if he wanted to create beings that were truly free to love. If we can only do good things, then we don’t have a choice anymore, and we are forced into action.

So the Bible says that Adam and Eve chose to reject God’s leadership, and because of their choice, evil entered the world. Because of their choice, all of their descendents had this characteristic of wanting to decide right and wrong for themselves instead of taking God’s word for it. It is the natural state of people to want to do this. Every person starts out in life alienated from God like this, and that is what each of us have minimally done against God. But more than that, each of us does act in evil ways. Even if we do not kill, commit adultery, or steal; we do hate, lust, and are selfish. The second category is just as bad as the first, because in your mind you have already objectified other people, or murder the person with your heart. And because of these bad things inside of us, we are alienated from a perfect God that cannot associate with us or else he becomes imperfect.

Now what punishment do we deserve? Well, since God is the creator of all things, he is the righteous judge of all things. His scale is not “do your good things outweigh the bad?”, but it is instead, “are you perfect?” Everyone must answer in honesty, “No.” So what is the punishment for not being perfect, because of our choices to reject God? It is spiritual (and the less important physical) death (separation from God), he warned Adam and Eve that it would be so. This may seem harsh, but we have committed the greatest crime possible, we have rebelled against our loving creator without reason. An analogy might be if you’re a parent, and you do a good job raising your kids. You love them, and discipline them only for their own good. You do not spoil them, and they are well-adjusted socially. You make sacrifices for them from yourself. One day they come to you and say, “I hate you, I want nothing to do with you, leave us alone.” for no reason. You would be upset wouldn’t you? Is that what you deserve as a parent? Is there any reason to explain it? There would be separation between you until they decide to stop hating. This is how we have treated God.

So my answer then is, there are NO innocent souls. We have all rebelled against God, both in thought and action. For God to be just he must judge our goodness, otherwise he must let everyone into a relationship despite what they have done. Hitler and Mother Theresa both get a “Good Job!” and a gold star from God.

This seems like a terrible predicament with no escape, but God wanted a relationship with us badly enough that he provided a way for the debt we owe to be paid. He sent His son down here to live as a person and make payment for us. Because He was human, He could pay for humanities sin. Because he was God, He as a single person could pay for all of the sins past, present and future of the entire human race. Now the escape from our debt is simple, because Jesus has already paid for the sins. Each individual can make the personal choice to ask God to have Jesus’ death to pay for their sins. Just asking this restores a direct relationship with God once again, and he blesses each person in many ways, including putting a piece of Himself, the Holy Spirit, inside of you to live in you and help you communicate with God.

 

[olde drunk]

we are as perfect as we can be, in each moment of our lives. we are doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing. not because we were told to do this or that, but because we choose to.

all souls are innocent and good. how could god punish you for what adam and eve did? that is unjust. my children were born out of love and they did rebel, one almost destroyed our home. i still love her as much as when at 4-5 she would run upstairs yelling 'I hate you'. a loving parent knows it isn't true. a loving parent allows for mistakes.

a loving parent would not punish a child for an alleged 'sin' committed by their long ago grandparents (adam and eve).

a loving god with infinite wisdom and justice can not be a contradiction. what if the government decided to punish your children because you cheated on yur taxes?? or because you committed crimes of treason?

we are all good and worthy. no one is greater or lesser. christ was an enlightened teacher. IMHO, his words were for that era. it is time to embrace all teachings and not deify christ. i never committed a sin needing salvation.

peace,

 

[Lorentz]

Now what punishment do we deserve? Well, since God is the creator of all things, he is the righteous judge of all things. His scale is not “do your good things outweigh the bad?”, but it is instead, “are you perfect?” Everyone must answer in honesty, “No.” So what is the punishment for not being perfect,

So what you're saying is that we aren't perfect and we have to get punished for that?

Didn't God make us unperfect in the first place?

 

[Lorentz]

The stories in the Bible don't claim to be metaphors, but they do claim to be truth. For example, the Gospels say they are testimony to what "they have seen and heard"

Saying that to me would mean I will take you less seriously. Because there's no way you could convince me those stories truly happened. If they were true then we wouldn't have the discussion about a God, because it would be clear to us then. Having said that I can see why you believe... if you believe the stories to be true, why wouldn't you believe in that same God?

Did you question the stories? What did you come up with?

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Olde drunk,

I really disagree with your comment that we are each as perfect as we can be. If we are all perfect then how do you explain Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, or just the neighborhood murderer? I think that some of these type of actions are influenced by environment, but people still make choices to act. That means they are responsible for their actions because they chose to do them. If one of my friends talks badly about me to someone else I have at least two choices: 1) start talking bad about them, 2) Ask them why they did it and tell them that it hurt. Both are not “perfect choices”, one seeks to hurt while the other to heal.

It is a valid concern to wonder about people who never heard about Jesus. Here is an excerpt from a webpage that describes some of the issues involved:

1. Will God condemn all those who have never heard the Gospel?
While the Bible insists that all people are saved only through Jesus Christ, it does not say that people can only be saved if they hear about Jesus Christ.
(C.S. Lewis) " . . . God has not told us what his arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him." (C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Touchstone, 1996), p. 65.)
• The Bible clearly teaches that God is just. Psalm 89:14 says, "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you."
In Genesis 18:25, Abraham rightly asserts "Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the Earth do right?"
There are many implications of justice, but one of them is that one is held responsible only for information which he has received—not for information which he has not received. Paul upholds this principle with regard to sin in Romans 4:15 when he says, " . . . where there is no law there is no transgression."
• The Bible also teaches that God gives a significant amount of revelation about himself to the person "without the Bible. " Paul declares in Romans 1:18-20 that God has "made it evident" to such people not only that he exists, but also that he has certain attributes: namely, tremendous power and creative intelligence. These attributes have been revealed "through what has been made"—through the order of the external universe.
Paul says in Romans 2:14,15 that people without access to special revelation ("the Gentiles who do not have the Law") also know that God is a morally righteous Being. They know this because of the moral conscience, which he has instilled in each person. These passages make two important points.
First: The amount of light is considerable. God reveals to the unevangelized that he is powerful, personal (because he is intelligent and righteous). Man's conscience also convicts him that he has violated God's righteous character (Romans 2:15). Responding to this light properly would mean humbly coming before God asking for mercy. Thus, though the means of man's forgiveness is not revealed through general revelation, the need for it is revealed.
Second: The point of Paul's argument in Romans 1 and 2 is that these people have been given enough light to be justly condemned. But it would seem to follow (because of God's justice) that this would also be enough light to be saved-if people respond to it properly.
Another biblical fact is relevant to this question. Old Testament believers were saved by their faith before the Jesus came. Hebrews 11 lists many Old Testament figures who fit this description. Old Testament Jews had access to special revelation, but they had no clear understanding of God's plan of salvation, because the fact that the Messiah must die for our forgiveness was not clearly revealed (Luke 24:44-47; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Furthermore, some of the Old Testament people who were saved (like Melchizedek and Job) had little or no access to the special revelation to Abraham.
Another possibility is that God will judge based on his knowledge of how people would have responded had they heard the message.
Conclusion: If the "person without the Bible" responds properly, (as defined above) to the light God has given him, he would be saved by grace through faith by asking God for mercy. He will be saved only through the death of Christ, because "no man comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). In this way, the unevangelized person today is much like the Jew before the time of Christ: he is justified before God by responding in faith to the light, which he has. (For an extensive discussion see Donald Richardson. Eternity in Their Hearts.)
Two important qualifications need to be mentioned at this point.
Qualification #1: Does this mean any unevangelized person who is a devout follower of his religion will be saved?
By no means. Most world religions are animistic, polytheistic, or pantheistic. But Romans 1 teaches that the truly open person will recognize that there is one God who is intelligent and personal, and that worshipping other god(s) is therefore an act of willful rebellion. Again, virtually all world religions teach a "works" approach to the deity—that the acceptance of the deity is attained by human effort through good works and/or ritual observance. But Romans 2:14,15 teaches that humans instinctively know that they are morally guilty before God and therefore have no claim on God's acceptance based on their own effort (works or ritual). Therefore, those who respond to God's general revelation by casting themselves on his mercy will be at odds with crucial elements in their native religious setting. Missionaries have reported many such people who responded quickly to their message of the one true God and his way of salvation.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Part II:

Qualification #2: If people can be saved apart from hearing the gospel, is evangelism and missions necessary?
• This question, if answered "no", would render Christ's commission to "make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19) pointless. The answer is "yes" because there is evidently a general correspondence between the amount of light given and the number of people who repent and are saved.
• Jesus teaches this principle in Matthew 11:20-24. He says that Tyre, Sidon and Sodom would have repented if they had received the light that Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida had received.
• This principle is also readily observed in history. While probably some Africans responded properly to the light of general revelation and were thus saved, clearly they were a small minority in unevangelized Africa judging by the paganism which pervaded Africa in the mid 1800's. It is no coincidence that today, after 150 years of missionary activity, almost 50% of Black Africans are evangelical Christians. Therefore, the number of people who get saved through general revelation is probably very small, and this fact preserves the strategic importance of Jesus' mission mandate.
Note: Furthermore, people who get saved by responding to general revelation have fewer spiritual resources available to them than individuals who hear and respond to the gospel. They would be like the "disciples" that Paul met in Acts 19:1-6. These men were evidently saved, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul explained the gospel to them. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as well as the other New Covenant ministries of the Holy Spirit, may be given only to those who have heard and responded to the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.
2. Is there justice in God's judgment?
We think, "It just doesn't seem fair for God to judge people and sentence them to hell." I don't like the idea, and neither does God (Eze. 18:23,32)—but consider these points:
• Can we trust our ability to judge what is fair for ourselves?
People tend to think that what they do is not very bad and does not deserve much punishment. Most prisoners believe that they are sentenced too severely. Because of our imperfect criminal justice system, some of them probably are—but it is highly unlikely that most of them are. Children demonstrate that this is an inborn attitude. This is why we don't let children or criminals choose their own punishments; they tend to go too soft on themselves. But God's judgment is perfect. He knows all the factors, every mitigating circumstance—and on that day he will demonstrate that he has been absolutely fair in his judgment.
• Furthermore, the alternative to this—universalism—is definitely not fair.
Is it fair for people to never be called to account for their actions? Is it fair that wicked people and not the righteous God have the last word on evil (STALIN: safe to the end, clenched fist at the end)? Is it fair for repentant people to spend eternity with an unrepentant STALIN? Is it fair for God to allow this world to go on for so long if he will send everyone to heaven? If people can't make a decision about where to spend eternity during this life, what is the point? If there is no ultimate accountability for our lives, then what is the difference between heaven and hell?
• Finally, this objection assumes that we have a proper moral standard by which to evaluate whether God's judgment is fair or unfair.
Most Americans believe that if there is a hell, only really bad people will go there. But there is a fatal flaw in this belief. How bad is bad enough? If Mother Theresa is good enough to go to heaven, and if Stalin is bad enough to go to hell, should we draw the line exactly halfway between them? What if you were one sin on Stalin's side of that line (that bad thought you had about your mother when you were ten years old)? Is this fair? No matter where you draw the line in this scenario, you always have the same dilemma. The Bible rejects this answer for one simple reason: it draws the line at God's moral perfection (Jas. 2:10; Matt. 5:48; Rom. 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.). It makes perfect sense, and God is certainly within his rights to draw it here. However, it is really bad news because it means all of us—Stalin, Mother Theresa, you, me—are under God's judgment. But the good news is that God has offered to take the rap for all of us. He says he has come in the Person of Jesus to bear God's judgment for us on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21). Now the way is open for all of us to escape God's judgment—if we put our trust in his payment. That's news you won't find anywhere but in Christianity.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Also, we are not punished because of ancestors mistake, we are punished because we personal choose to act without God. THis is a result of our character being changed because of the actions of others, but it is an inherent charactersitic of people to turn away from God.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Lorentz,

Sorry to take a long time to respond. My computer won’t let me see these forums from home for some reason. To answer your questions:

1) God made us perfect, but he wanted to make creatures that had free will. Part of giving a being free will is to accept the possibility that they may choose against their creator.
2) I guess I would ask what stories you specifically don’t believe? Do you believe any of it is true (the Bible)? It will affect where I start explaining. I believe in fully examining any text, including the Bible. This includes looking at the context for a verse, passage, or book, looking at the culture of the time, seeing who the text was written to, and who it was written by. And also how the culture of the day viewed the text.

Applying these things to the Bible it can be seen that the works are self-consistent and it claims to be the description of true events – and God’s words. The people of the day thought it was true, and archaelogical evidence has supported most everything that archaelogists have studied about Biblical places.

You would be surprised, some people believe the stories and still don’t believe in God. I don’t think that makes much sense either though.

I was an athiest for the first 20 years of my life. I was downright hostile towards them. I questioned the validity of the stories a lot. A number of things happened to get me to investigate what the Bible says (if you like I will go more into detail here), but after a while, I wanted to believe in the God of the Bible. But I thought it was just emotions saying that, and that the facts didn’t back it up. So I asked my friend for a copy of “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. This guy is a Harvard Law graduate who went out to prove how fake Jesus was. In the process of interviewing people and examining the evidence, he became a Christian. The book is a description of the interviews and the evidence he found for the questions he had. I got half way through this book and decided that the facts really were there for the stories about Jesus.

Some of the things that were impactful to me, about the validity of the stories:

1) There are more than 1000 complete manuscripts of the new testament that we have written between 120-300 A.D. (which is within 30 years of some of the events they describe, so that people still alive could correct them). There are 5000 full manuscripts plus fragments from the same period. They are all virtually identical, and that is what is used as the basis for the modern translation of the Bible (NASB, NIV, NRSV) – straight from Greek to English. In contrast, the oldest copy in existence of The Illiad is 2000 years after when it was written, and there are just two copies of that age. In fact, of all historical documents, it is the most verifiable and accurate because of the number of independent copies that exist and check with one another, and the closeness of the documents to when the events happened.
2) The disciples all believed what they had written and believed about Jesus to be true, because they were willing to die for it when just telling the Roman officials, “I didn’t see Christ resurrected" would have gotten them freedom (normally, confessions to the Romans only ensured a quick death).
3) 100 years ago archaeologists were certain that the Biblical account of geography (of towns and such) was completely fabricated. An example is in the accuracy of Luke, which originally considered to be completely false. The renowned Sir William Ramsey (England) was at the top of his field (in the world) and set out to prove just how false Luke was by examining the sites he records in that Gospel. After years of study in the Middle East, Ramsey’s position on Luke had changed. He eventually classified “the beloved physician” (Col. 4:14) as one of “the very greatest of historians” who ever lived (Luke the Physician, p. 222). He found that in making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands he (Luke) made no mistakes!"

There are more, but these are just a few of the things I found when I began to really research the authenticity of these stories.

 

[olde drunk]

Also, we are not punished because of ancestors mistake, we are punished because we personal choose to act without God. THis is a result of our character being changed because of the actions of others, but it is an inherent charactersitic of people to turn away from God.

how in god's name did i act without god? i was born innocent but i am punished for the acts of others?

nah, you were born innocent and accepted the propaganda that you must accept god's will when something went wrong. you had to deserve it, he is most just.

honest injun, i went through 12 years of catholic education (including altarboy) and understand the process. it has taken over 40 years to undo their ideas. unfortunately, there were 35 years of booze, 2 marriages and a lot of thinking to understand that i did it all to myself. i include the choice of when, where and how i was born. to accept a concept you must apply it to all logical events.

once i accepted full responsiblity for my reality/experience, i understood so much more. my god, (whoever, whatever s/he/it is), is there to help, not judge. we can do no wrong.

peace & love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

I will ask you again (don't remember if it was in this thread or others); If we can do no wrong, how do you explain the Holocaust, Cambodia, Russia under Stalin, mass murderes like Ted Bundy, and just average theivery and crime?

Do you think that these people acting rightly?

 

[olde drunk]

I will ask you again (don't remember if it was in this thread or others); If we can do no wrong, how do you explain the Holocaust, Cambodia, Russia under Stalin, mass murderes like Ted Bundy, and just average theivery and crime?

Do you think that these people acting rightly?

i am not sure you're going to like this, so hang on!

there are no victims. now, slow down! i did not say they asked to be harmed or injured. this is complicated so try to feel the value of this concept because it goes against most of what we believe happens day to day.

1. we, each of us, create or co-create our reality. (we won't go into how. QM?)

2. there is no right or wrong, simply 'experience' to expand our own and god's consciousness.

3. our 'present' is the focus of past and future proablity threads. we are living a probabilty thread based on our individual desired goal.

4. let's deal with hitler - probably the biggest of the baddest--

5. he came to power thru the spiritual need of, or lack of leadership. while we are all creating our individual reality, we also add our energy to the mass reality of our neighborhood, community, state, country, world.

6. it is important to realize that through the mass reality we are helping our fellow man accomplish his goals and vice-versa.

7. back to adolph, he was well intentioned and did a lot of good for germany, before he got carried away.

8. within the group dynamics we have a race that believes that it is better to 'turn the other cheek', we have another group that believes that they are the master race. (lol, chosen people meets chosen race). I AM NOT MAKING LITE OF THIS HISTORY.

9. the two groups AGREED to play out the holocaust for the growth of civilization. they did not ask to be victim and purpetrator, circumstances of their individual goals put them in line to agree to these roles for the progress of mankind.

10. hopefully we will always remeber the holocaust and be able to avert another.

11. it is important to understand that what we see as victims, did not ask to be harmed or injured. they agreeded to the experience for their individual reason, some for the betterment of mankind, some to satisfy a desire to experience an unusual death.

i am not saying that this is EXACTLY how it happens, i am not that in tune with the universe. but, after years and years of thought, this concept fills all the holes i find/found in traditional thinking.

relax, tell the universe where you want to go and the universe will take you there.

peace and love,

 

[ProtractedSilence]

Well, I disagree. But thank you for clearly explaining what you mean, it helps a lot.

If I create my own reality, why do I need other people at all?
Why don't things always go how I desire?

And if the two parts of society in Germany agreed for the good of society to live out the Holocaust, why would we need to avert another? Society has grown because of it right?

I don't think that people agreed to die an unusual death. You would have to show me proof for me to buy that.

Let's try another situation: I go to sleep one night after a party and while I am sleeping, someone comes by and sets my house on fire and me and four others die asleep in the flames. Now did I get the choice to participate in this? This happened (of course not with me) at my college last spring.

Or another: A girl I graduated high school with had an older brother going to school at a police academy. She asked to see his issue pistol. She unloaded the round out of the chamber and then unloaded the clip out of the gun, and then told her brother that the gun was unloaded. She then asked him to show her the fast draw. He drew and pulled the trigger, and the round in the chamber (proper unloading sequence is clip and then chamber) shot her directly in the chest at close range. She died. Did she choose to die? Did her brother choose to kill? I think they both had unexpected things happen to them.

 

[einsteinian77]

what if there was no good or bad? that the world just 'is'.

did we construct a devil as a better means of understanding a god?

what if god is the universe? would we need a devil?

so, if we change our understanding of god will we remove the basis for having a devil?

personally, i think it is time for us to grow up and go beyond the myths of the ancients. all the old texts are guides for living. they can not be faultless. after all they were transcribed and translated by humans.

it is time to redefine our spiritual foundation without a 'god and/or devil'.

ah hell, there would be an economic slow down as all churches were removed from the money flow BUT we would bounce back.

An authentic sign of the end of the world.

 

[Rader]

666

i am not sure you're going to like this, so hang on!

there are no victims. now, slow down! i did not say they asked to be harmed or injured. this is complicated so try to feel the value of this concept because it goes against most of what we believe happens day to day.

1. we, each of us, create or co-create our reality. (we won't go into how. QM?)

2. there is no right or wrong, simply 'experience' to expand our own and god's consciousness.

3. our 'present' is the focus of past and future proablity threads. we are living a probabilty thread based on our individual desired goal.

4. let's deal with hitler - probably the biggest of the baddest--

5. he came to power thru the spiritual need of, or lack of leadership. while we are all creating our individual reality, we also add our energy to the mass reality of our neighborhood, community, state, country, world.

6. it is important to realize that through the mass reality we are helping our fellow man accomplish his goals and vice-versa.

7. back to adolph, he was well intentioned and did a lot of good for germany, before he got carried away.

8. within the group dynamics we have a race that believes that it is better to 'turn the other cheek', we have another group that believes that they are the master race. (lol, chosen people meets chosen race). I AM NOT MAKING LITE OF THIS HISTORY.

9. the two groups AGREED to play out the holocaust for the growth of civilization. they did not ask to be victim and purpetrator, circumstances of their individual goals put them in line to agree to these roles for the progress of mankind.

10. hopefully we will always remeber the holocaust and be able to avert another.

11. it is important to understand that what we see as victims, did not ask to be harmed or injured. they agreeded to the experience for their individual reason, some for the betterment of mankind, some to satisfy a desire to experience an unusual death.

i am not saying that this is EXACTLY how it happens, i am not that in tune with the universe. but, after years and years of thought, this concept fills all the holes i find/found in traditional thinking.

relax, tell the universe where you want to go and the universe will take you there.

peace and love,

666 Now I know why you do not like Latin.

 

[olde drunk]

666 Now I know why you do not like Latin.

THERE AIN'T NO DEVIL, EITHER!

see, i didn't waste dem 3 years of latin.

love & peace,

 

[olde drunk]

Well, I disagree. But thank you for clearly explaining what you mean, it helps a lot.

If I create my own reality, why do I need other people at all?
Why don't things always go how I desire?

And if the two parts of society in Germany agreed for the good of society to live out the Holocaust, why would we need to avert another? Society has grown because of it right?

I don't think that people agreed to die an unusual death. You would have to show me proof for me to buy that.

Let's try another situation: I go to sleep one night after a party and while I am sleeping, someone comes by and sets my house on fire and me and four others die asleep in the flames. Now did I get the choice to participate in this? This happened (of course not with me) at my college last spring.

Or another: A girl I graduated high school with had an older brother going to school at a police academy. She asked to see his issue pistol. She unloaded the round out of the chamber and then unloaded the clip out of the gun, and then told her brother that the gun was unloaded. She then asked him to show her the fast draw. He drew and pulled the trigger, and the round in the chamber (proper unloading sequence is clip and then chamber) shot her directly in the chest at close range. She died. Did she choose to die? Did her brother choose to kill? I think they both had unexpected things happen to them.

i have no problem with your disagreement. please give me your reason these things happen.

to be at the mercy of a god seems very, very unjust for a supreme being. why should i suffer because s/he/it was PMSing on a given day.

why do race drivers die in firey crashes? yeah, they enjoyed going fast and cheating death. they also choose their way of dying. or mountain climbers, or solidiers, does god insist that they take unusual risks??

i'm willing to change this outline, if i am given an intelligent, logical reason. so far, reviewing my life and my events, this makes the most sense. again, adding reincarnation to the mix, helps us see how we grow and expand our awareness(consciousness) through our physical existence.

love & peace,

 

[theamazingTWOeyedman]

Satan is a force, not a person in the sense you would think, destroying Satan would destroy our free will. God wants us to choose to love him, not to be forced to. If there was no good/evil, we'd have no choice but to be good right? Destroying evil would also destroy good, because on a white sheet of paper you cannot see a white dot, it just blends in.

 

[loseyourname]

If God is all-good, then he cannot choose evil. Does this mean God has no free will? If that is the case, why would he feel it is important for us to have it?

 

[honestrosewater]

God wants us to choose to love him, not to be forced to.

And God is willing to put us through hell to get what He wants?
Think about your post "What is 'good'?"

How would you define good? Even some of the good things you do impact others in a bad way. How about this... If you do something "good" to someone just for personal gain, is it still a good deed? Is good perhaps just something that if you were in the recievers shoes would appriciate?

How would you define good?

Happy thoughts
Rachel

 

[olde drunk]

We are in the process of becomming. Within the process all experience brings us closer to our goal. So, all experience is worthwhile; neither good nor bad.

Experience just IS.

loveNpeace
olde drunk

 

[Janitor]

About a week ago I saw an item on the news. There was a girder up on an overpass in the Denver area. For some unknown reason it fell. The SUV that was traveling underneath was chopped up by the girder, killing the two adults and the young child inside.

Any number of events like this should give pause for thought to those who believe in a caring deity.

And if one is tempted to answer, "The occupants are humans and humans are worthless vermin and deserve what they get," then there are all sorts of examples from the animal kingdom. Take beached whales, for instance. Why do they deserve to die in that way?

 

[Janitor]

Another thought.

If God is the one who decides how and when a person dies, why does He sometimes tie His own hands by bringing conjoined twins into the world? If they cannot be separated surgically, they spend their life joined, and then when one dies, the other also dies within minutes, or maybe it is a few hours at most.

 

[olde drunk]

Freewill

If God is the one who decides how and when a person dies, why does He sometimes tie His own hands by bringing conjoined twins into the world? If they cannot be separated surgically, they spend their life joined, and then when one dies, the other also dies within minutes, or maybe it is a few hours at most.

when i asked these same questions, the only logical answer i could reach was that it is a function of freewill. god, whoever - whatever s/he/it is, gains from the experience that we choose.

why do we choose difficult experiences? within infinity - eternity our life is but an eye blink. some of us want to be more adventurous and/or want to experience a particular handicap to better appreciate our spiritual wholeness.

are the twins 2 separate personailities (souls) or are they one soul looking to branch out into (create) a second soul? are they 2 personalities that have loved each other so much that they wanted to share a body and reality experience rogether?

again, freewill and the desire to expand awareness is MY answer. I just can not believe that any god would impose pain and suffering on one person and joy and happiness on another, it ain't just or merciful or properly omnipotent.

loveNpeace,
olde drunk

 

[loseyourname]

Not all people reach their goals. Some experience is counterproductive. I don't know how you could possibly claim otherwise. If I experience having my head removed from my body later today, I don't think that will help me reach anything other than death, which I am certainly not aiming for.

 

[olde drunk]

Not all people reach their goals. Some experience is counterproductive. I don't know how you could possibly claim otherwise. If I experience having my head removed from my body later today, I don't think that will help me reach anything other than death, which I am certainly not aiming for.

UNLESS you wanted to experience a cruel manner of death. within my view of our experience here, all our individual experience adds to the awareness of the universe (god).

we also have a journey of exploration and use freewill to expand our indiviual awareness and expand the universal consciousness.

otherwise, why does this type of violence exist? because we are 'bad'? why would a merciful god allow such an event to occur? if i choose or agree to have my head removed, it make more sense, IMHO.

loveNpeace,
olde drunk

 

[loseyourname]

As long as that's nothing more than a humble opinion, given that your hypothesis is completely intestable and unfalsifiable. I'm sure you realize that propositions cannot be considered true simply because they appeal to your conscience.

 

[loseyourname]

By the way, I wonder if you have ever read Illusions by Richard Bach. It's a fiction novel, but it proposes exactly the same order to reality that you have. You might enjoy it.

 

[olde drunk]

By the way, I wonder if you have ever read Illusions by Richard Bach. It's a fiction novel, but it proposes exactly the same order to reality that you have. You might enjoy it.

No! but i did read SEAGULL, way back in ancient history. Kinda helped break with traditional thot about god, religion,self and reality.

Bach was a friend of Jane Roberts and I've read several of her books, including a couple of the seth books. Adventures of Oversoul 7, was cute and offered another, different view of our entire self.

loveNpeace,
olde drunk

 

[sarahinfrance]

Answers

Evil exists merely because God exists. It's like symmetry or a mirror. However, evil had no physical form until (as explained in the Bible) Satan chose it (which is why us Christians call him a "fallen-angel"). God could at any moment destroy this little boy but what would that prove? For example I could write a paper and hand it over to my friend to critique and if he did not like it, instead of arguing my point, I could easily just shoot him...but what would that prove? In the same way what would that prove about the powerful effects of the beauty of God's nature? As far as us human beings down here on Earth, evil still reigns inside us because of the infamous Adam and Eve story, but since the dawn of time it has been noted that God has always given us this free will to chose his side and hopes that we do. As for God killing the devil in a thousand years, where did you get that figure? No dates in the Bible can be found and ridiculous assumptions would have to be made in order to find lengths of time within. For all we know the devil will be here within 15 days. So you're a big boy now, can't you understand big-boy books? Read The Bible.
Other sources:
doesgodexist.com
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

 

[loseyourname]

From the Freedom from Religion Foundation (www.ffrf.org), in answer to the question, who is responsible for evil:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

The word "create" above is bara, the same word used in Genesis 1:1. The word "evil" is ra, such as in Genesis 2:9, "the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Some versions, such as the NIV, have unjustifiably softened the implications of this verse by translating ra as "disaster" or "calamity," although ra is used repeatedly throughout scripture to refer to moral evil. (See Isaiah 7:14-15: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil [ra], and choose the good.") But even if the "disaster" interpretation were allowable, the verse still depicts God as a troublemaker.

 

[dementeddoughboy]

Free will?

As far as us human beings down here on Earth, evil still reigns inside us because of the infamous Adam and Eve story, but since the dawn of time it has been noted that God has always given us this free will to chose his side and hopes that we do.

This is undoubtedly off-topic, but how can you possibly be a Christian and believe in free will? The Bible describes God as omniscient, meaning he knows everything. There is also a verse in the Bible that says that God knows you before you're even in the womb. Obviously, these mean that he knows your future before you're even created. However, if God created you then he controls every action and every decision you will ever make at creation. If he wants you to be a Christian, he'd make you more open to religious doctrine. If he wanted me to be an athiest, he would make me like he would have if he was real.

I know this is scatter brained, so you'll have to forgive me, but isn't it plausible that if God knew everything you will face before he actually created you, the way he creates you will make you choose different options? Ultimately, following this way of thinking, your life is already chosen for you.

 

[Carl1free]

Hey People-
I hope you guys don't mind another two cents thrown in... I guess for me it comes down to personal faith... If you want to believe in evil and a devil, and that faith works for you, then for you it is real. I believe what Olde Drunk is trying to get across is best said in "Conversations with God" (the entire series), although Richard Bach's books are fairly close in some aspects.
Of course we are going to jump to the worst cases imaginable to test our ideas about God (anyone's ideas about God) but I have to remind myself that while I am disproving YOUR theory, my theory (if I feel it is correct) was operating at the same time... what I mean to say is that if my idea (faith) allows a world that is self created and something horrible happens, and my friend comes along and says "see, you didn't ask for that, so your faith must be wrong and so my faith in Jesus (Allah, Buddha, Hare Krishna, pick one) must be right" then right there that person ought to recognize that his/her faith/idea of God allowed the horrible thing to happen as well... and everyone else on the planet is included in that. And as for not believing "THE RIGHT or ONLY WAY" and being punished for that, well, I just can't put a whole lotta stock in a God, an omnipotent, perfect "I Am everything" God, has the self-insecurity enough to punish his creations for aspects of their behavior or thoughts that he wanted them to have in the first place. It just doesn't add up. God would be powerful enough that all would be allowed that was allowable, and stuff that was taboo would be not allowed, wouldn't one think? And since it seem that anything goes, well then I guess that God wants us to experience life without restriction. Chose, (free will) but understand there are consequences to choices (actions and reactions) and by the way, life happens and you get to chose how to react to it as well. People often define themselves in the face of adversity and calamity, do they not? Does the person whose friends die in a fire chose to go on to be a firefighter and save lives (and would those friend's deaths be in vain in that case??) Wouldn't the availability of those kinds of opportunities and choices only be possible if God allowed then to be there?
I can run at the mouth (keyboard) forever, but I am looking forward to you guys' input.
Carl1free

 

[olde drunk]

Read The Bible.
Other sources:
doesgodexist.com
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

WHICH ONE??

i read several and they are nice stories. their fiction is worse than Bach and other writers because so much has been lost in translation.

whatsamatter for you?? you no like-a seagull for a saviour? hell, johnathan is not better or worse than you or me.

we are our own saviour, if we believe we need one.

i don't!

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[olde drunk]

oh, by the way, what are we to be saved from?

this is what really put me on the road to self discovery. way back in the 40's catholic schools this was taught to the tune of a ruler across your knuckles. i felt it was misleading then and i know it (for myself) now.

letting go of all imposed ideas of religion will lead one to realize that it is all a personal choice and subjective to the extreme.

please do not save me. I ALREADY DID!

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

please do not save me. I ALREADY DID!

It looks like you need to be saved brother. Would you like to:
a) donate money
b) spend 40 days with no food
c) learn all the psalms
d) search for more help on the web