Can light have a phase velocity faster than c?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the phase velocity of electromagnetic waves, particularly whether it can exceed the speed of light (c) and the relationship between phase velocity, group velocity, and signal velocity in various media. Participants explore theoretical implications and specific conditions under which these velocities behave differently.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the phase velocity of electromagnetic waves can exceed c, noting that the phase velocity of massive particles is claimed to be greater than c.
  • Others argue that while the group velocity can exceed c, the phase velocity is generally thought to be less than c in a vacuum, but may exceed c in certain media.
  • One participant mentions that the group velocity is associated with the transmission of information and asserts that it never exceeds c over reasonable distances, despite instances where it can exceed c.
  • Another participant states that the phase velocity in a medium is determined by the refractive index and can exceed c under specific conditions (n<1), while also noting that group velocities can take any value in pathological media.
  • Further questions are raised about the relationship between signal velocity and phase velocity in a medium, and whether the group velocity of monochromatic light is always the same as the phase velocity.
  • Mathematical expressions for group velocity are introduced, prompting inquiries about the empirical determination of refractive indices for different wavelengths.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of phase and group velocities, particularly in relation to the speed of light. There is no consensus on whether the phase velocity can exceed c, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these velocities in various media.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific conditions and theoretical frameworks, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of velocities and the nature of media involved. The discussion includes empirical considerations and mathematical relationships that are not fully established.

redtree
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Can an electromagnetic wave have a phase velocity greater than c? Is the phase velocity of a photon always c?

As far as I understand, the phase velocity of all massive particles (particles with rest mass) is greater than c.
 
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well neither the group velocity nor the phase velocity is always c.

the group velocity can be greater than c.
not sure whether the phase velocity can be greater than c.
 
As I understand it, the group velocity of a light wave is thought to be the velocity at which information is transmitted. The phase velocity of light in a medium is generally less than the speed of light in a vacuum but in some rare circumstances the phase velocity can be greater than c but it is generally thought that the rate information can be transmitted never exceeds c over any reasonable distances. Confusingly the group velocity can also exceed c in certain rare circumstances but it still claimed information transmission does not exceed c in those conditions.

The velocity of a particle in a medium can exceed the phase velocity of c in the same medium and in those circumstances Cerenkov radiation is given off. I am not sure of the universal truth of your last statement about the phase velocity of massive particles.

This Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_velocity does support your statement.
 
Last edited:
redtree said:
the phase velocity of all massive particles (particles with rest mass) is greater than c.
And if you understood why (say derived from the assumption that a particle of definite momentum is identified with a packet of waves that have no preferred frame), you know that the phase (and group) velocity of any zero-rest-mass particle in vacuum is c.

But in medium? Phase velocity is given simply by refractive index, and commonly exceeds c (n<1). For sufficiently pathological media, even group velocities can take any value. Next question?
 
cesiumfrog said:
And if you understood why (say derived from the assumption that a particle of definite momentum is identified with a packet of waves that have no preferred frame), you know that the phase (and group) velocity of any zero-rest-mass particle in vacuum is c.

But in medium? Phase velocity is given simply by refractive index, and commonly exceeds c (n<1). For sufficiently pathological media, even group velocities can take any value. Next question?


OK, next question(s).

Given that in a medium the phase velocity of light and the group velocity of light can both exceed c and the signal velocity of light (transfer of energy or information) never exceeds c, then

What is the relationship between signal velocity and phase velocity of monochromatic light of wavelength (w) in a medium of phase refractive index (n)?

Is the group velocity of monochromatic light always the same as the phase velocity in a given medium?

Given the equation for group velocity v_g = c\left(n-w\frac{dn}{dw}\right)^{-1}

and if the refractive index of an optical medium is determined empirically for a given wavelength of light can the refractive index for any wavelength of light in the same medium be determined mathematically without further emperical measurements?
 

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