Does an electric charge curve spacetime ?

Gonzolo
Does an electric charge "curve spacetime"?

If theorists (starting with A. E.) can make a theory about spacetime curvature caused by mass (GR), couldn't there be a similar theory where some spacetime curvature is caused by electric charges? Both are F = k/r^2 in elementary physics.

A postulate could be that an electron in an elevator (made of electons, or a negatively charged inside surface) cannot tell the difference whether :

1. the elevator is stopped and that there is a large + charge underneath or :

2. the elevator is accelerating upwards

Where does this lead? What happens if you take magnetism into account?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Mass and energy cause curvature. Einstein spent much of the rest of his life after developing GR to try and include E-M theory as well, a unified field theory, but was unsuccessful; probably because he didn't know about the strong and the weak nuclear forces at the time, which have to be included as well.

However this question may be the opportunity to consider the following, "According to the EEP a stationary electron on a laboratory bench is accelerating w.r.t. the local Lorentzian freely falling inertial frame of reference. According to Maxwell’s theory of electromagnetism an accelerating electric charge, such as an electron, radiates. So why doesn’t it? Or, if it is thought that such an electron actually does radiate, what is the source of such radiated energy?"
Garth
 
I don't know what EEP and w.r.t. stand for.

That's interesting but it's not unification that I want to talk about. I am wondering whether a theory similar to GR can be developped from the two postulates of my first post (or similar ones), instead of the familiar ones with gravity and mass.

Based on the premise that charge and mass are equally important, why does mass curve spacetime, but not charges? "What happens if we replace m by q in GR's equations" and consider attractions and repulsions?" I believe that if mass can curve spacetime, then so should + and - charges. So a GR-like theory should be able to be developped talking about charges instead of mass (whether its useful or not).

Perhaps this thread belongs in the theory developped section. I let GR specialists out there be the judges.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's a fair question. The reason is that gravity affects all particles in the same way; charge doesn't. Accelration due to gravity is independentof the particular properties of the particle whereas acceleration due to the electromagnetic force depends on it's mass to charge ratio.

There was an attempt to include the electromagnetic force as the curvature of spacetime - Kaluza-Klein theory, which needed the additon of an extra spacetime dimension. Later some of the ideas of Kaluza-Klein theory were used in string theory.
 
Gonzolo said:
I don't know what EEP and w.r.t. stand for.

EEP = Einstein Equivalence Principle :w.r.t = with respect to.
Gonzolo said:
That's interesting but it's not unification that I want to talk about. I am wondering whether a theory similar to GR can be developped from the two postulates of my first post (or similar ones), instead of the familiar ones with gravity and mass.
Einstein had a go and couldn't develop one, but perhaps you will succeed!

Garth
 
Gonzolo said:
Based on the premise that charge and mass are equally important, why does mass curve spacetime, but not charges? "What happens if we replace m by q in GR's equations" and consider attractions and repulsions?" I believe that if mass can curve spacetime, then so should + and - charges. So a GR-like theory should be able to be developped talking about charges instead of mass (whether its useful or not).
The problem is that a spin 2 field, like the supposedly graviton, always causes attraction. It cannot yield to repulsion.

This requires negative energy. You will get time travel and loose causality.
 
I believe that spins and gravitons were un-thought of when A. E. developped GR and am not aware that they are considered in GR today. The theory I have in mind should be able to be developped from nothing else than classical physics, as GR was.

I'm living in 1916 for this thread and telling Einstein that there is a (perhaps parallel) spacetime associated with charges (mass not considered). I'm asking him to prove to me that a very strong electric field cannot curve a light beam as would a massive star. And am suggesting that electric forces can be explained with differential geometry.
 
Now, I'm not a physicist (just a first-year engineering student), but I'd like to venture a guess why. I've actually thought of something like this, Gonzolo, but I came up with an explanation which satisfies me, and I think will satisfy you as well.

The whole premise behind GR is that it is impossible to distinguish between gravity and acceleration. That is, if you stood in an elevator in space which was accelerating at 9.8 m/s² without access to the outside world, there is no experiment that you could do to determine that you are not on Earth (assuming that on Earth, slight fluctuations in g near the surface are impossible to measure). Essentially, gravity and acceleration are the same thing. Now, everything else in GR is based on this premise, including the curved space around massive objects.

However, the same cannot be said of a electric fields. Let's go back to our closed elevator scenario. It's incredibly easy to determine the difference between electromagnetism and "regular" acceleration. All you have to do is place an electron on one side of you and a proton on the other. If both fall to the floor of the elevator, you know that you're both "regularly" accelerating. If one falls to the floor and the other rises towards the ceiling, you know that you're under the influence of a charged object. Therefore, the basic premise of GR is false when considering EM, and nothing else can be derived from it.

Hope I helped!
 
Gonzolo said:
If theorists (starting with A. E.) can make a theory about spacetime curvature caused by mass (GR), couldn't there be a similar theory where some spacetime curvature is caused by electric charges? Both are F = k/r^2 in elementary physics.

So far, this sounds like Kaluza-Klein theory, which is an attempt to get electromagnetism from a geometrical theory. It didn't work out on its own, but it helped inspire string theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza-Klein_theory

However, elevators and equivalence principles are not involved in Kaluza-Klein theory. Instead, one contemplates a 5-d spacetime, and eventually one concludes that one of the dimensions may be small and "curled up". One gets gravity and electromagnetism and a scalar field (which hasn't been observed) out of such a theory. You'll see some of the ideas in Kaluza-Klein theory which are later used by string theory (the extra spatial dimensions and the way they are handled).

BTW, magnetism and electrostatic forces are unified by special relativity - a magnetic field is basically just the consequence of an electric field as seen by a moving observer.
 
  • #10
Dburghoff said:
The whole premise behind GR is that it is impossible to distinguish between gravity and acceleration. That is, if you stood in an elevator in space which was accelerating at 9.8 m/s² without access to the outside world, there is no experiment that you could do to determine that you are not on Earth (assuming that on Earth, slight fluctuations in g near the surface are impossible to measure). Essentially, gravity and acceleration are the same thing. Now, everything else in GR is based on this premise, including the curved space around massive objects.

Yup, I pretty much agree with that.

Dburghoff said:
However, the same cannot be said of a electric fields. Let's go back to our closed elevator scenario. It's incredibly easy to determine the difference between electromagnetism and "regular" acceleration. All you have to do is place an electron on one side of you and a proton on the other. If both fall to the floor of the elevator, you know that you're both "regularly" accelerating. If one falls to the floor and the other rises towards the ceiling, you know that you're under the influence of a charged object. Therefore, the basic premise of GR is false when considering EM, and nothing else can be derived from it.

That is true. But if you only have an electron, how can you tell? Couldn't one recreate GR with this case? And then another GR for the proton case? Perhaps that by then mixing the 2 "new" GR theories, we would arrive to the same conclusions than by having both charge in the elevator. I do not know.

pervect, Kaluza-Klein theory may be what I'm trying to talk about, I am not sure. I would try to avoid mass and gravity to begin with, to see where it goes. Perhaps KK did that, and eventually added mass to complete the theory. Honestly, I would need rigourous GR and KK introductions. I am wondering where the premise of my first post would lead if I gave it to A. E. or knew how to demonstrate his equations.
 
  • #11
Garth said:
However this question may be the opportunity to consider the following, "According to the EEP a stationary electron on a laboratory bench is accelerating w.r.t. the local Lorentzian freely falling inertial frame of reference. According to Maxwell’s theory of electromagnetism an accelerating electric charge, such as an electron, radiates. So why doesn’t it? Or, if it is thought that such an electron actually does radiate, what is the source of such radiated energy?"
Radiation is due to a reconfiguration of the electric field lines due to a change in the motion of the charge (the new field lines emerging from the charge do not match with the old ones). Inside a gravitational field the field lines are static and thus there is no radiation. May be this explanation is too simple and I am missing something...?
 
  • #12
That is true. But if you only have an electron, how can you tell? Couldn't one recreate GR with this case? And then another GR for the proton case? Perhaps that by then mixing the 2 "new" GR theories, we would arrive to the same conclusions than by having both charge in the elevator. I do not know.

all particles fall at the same rate in a gravitational field because both inertia and the gravitational attraction are proportional to the mass of the falling object: F=ma=GMm/r^2. So the acceleration a=Gm/r^2 is independent of the mass of the object.

For an electric charge this is different: F=ma=CqQ/r^2 so a=CqQ/mr^2. So it depends both on the mass and the charge of the object. So there is no equivalence principle like that of GR.
 
  • #13
da_willem said:
all particles fall at the same rate in a gravitational field because both inertia and the gravitational attraction are proportional to the mass of the falling object: F=ma=GMm/r^2. So the acceleration a=Gm/r^2 is independent of the mass of the object.

For an electric charge this is different: F=ma=CqQ/r^2 so a=CqQ/mr^2. So it depends both on the mass and the charge of the object. So there is no equivalence principle like that of GR.

Yes, this is what makes the geometrical interpretation very "natural" for gravity. Since all particles behave the same way because of the equivalence principle, it's easy to describe the motion of a particle geometrically by making the natural motion of a particle a geodesic.

However, the geometrical POV can be used to handle forces as well, as Kaluza-Klein theory shows. The mechanism for doing so is a little "tricky" (extra spatial dimensions, often rolled up into a small curve).
 
  • #14
hellfire said:
Inside a gravitational field the field lines are static and thus there is no radiation.
Define "static" - static in the laboratory non-inertial frame, or static in the freely falling, inertial Lorentzian frame?

Which should the electron not radiate in?

-Garth
 
  • #15
da_willem said:
all particles fall at the same rate in a gravitational field because both inertia and the gravitational attraction are proportional to the mass of the falling object: F=ma=GMm/r^2. So the acceleration a=Gm/r^2 is independent of the mass of the object.

For an electric charge this is different: F=ma=CqQ/r^2 so a=CqQ/mr^2. So it depends both on the mass and the charge of the object. So there is no equivalence principle like that of GR.

That makes sense (with a = GM/r^2 instead). I understand better. The ratio q/m suggests why Kaluza-Klein unifies gravity and EM. KK is probably the simplest complete geodesic EM theory.

Now this may be an insult to Newton (and to myself), but mathematically, we could use F = qE instead of F = ma. This gives rise to E playing the role of a. But E = d?/dt = F/q = (m/q)*(dx^2/dt^2) = (m/q)*a... the same ratio. The ratio q/m might suggests why Kaluza-Klein unifies gravity and EM.

For the sake of exploring what happens if I consciously look away from inertia, mass and gravity, I'll keep going :

What about if I shove m into the C (or use m = 1 for simplicity)? The electron in our EM elevator is alone and has constant mass anyway. We then got a = CqQ/r^2, just like gravity. C's units have changed though, so this may start controversy. I may be departing physics.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #16
Now this may be an insult to Newton (and to myself), but mathematically, we could use F = qE instead of F = ma. This gives rise to E playing the role of a

Physically (not only mathematically) they are both true but have a very different meaning! F=ma is an incomplete law that describes how an object responds to a force. F=ma is incomplete in the sense that it needs the input of a force to tell you something about the movement of he object. F=qE is an example of such a force, but is not an equation of motion like Newtons second law, and thus has (with all the other formulas describing all other forces) an entirely different status...
 
  • #17
Garth said:
Define "static" - static in the laboratory non-inertial frame, or static in the freely falling, inertial Lorentzian frame?

Which should the electron not radiate in?

-Garth
I would say the field lines are static in the laboratory frame in which the electron is at rest. Does this mean the electron should radiate in a free falling frame? I have to admit that my first post was only a guess, but I really don't know. May be you could elaborate a little bit.
 
  • #18
hellfire said:
I would say the field lines are static in the laboratory frame in which the electron is at rest. Does this mean the electron should radiate in a free falling frame? I have to admit that my first post was only a guess, but I really don't know. May be you could elaborate a little bit.

According to the equivalence principle of GR the natural inertial Lorentzian frame is the freely falling one. The table-top is being accelerated upwards wrt this frame by the force pushing on it by the floor. The electron itself on the lab table is therefore accelerating upwards wrt this inertial frame, being 'pushed upwards' by the table and according to Maxwell ought to be radiating.

I have had the opinion expressed in a university physics community that in fact such electrons do radiate, but at such a low power that it has not been detected. In which case the second part of my question comes into play, if so, where does this energy of radiation come from? The electron is just sitting there minding its own business!

In my view this question is tied up with the problem that energy is not locally conserved in GR, and there has been some discussion about that on these forums.
- Garth
 
  • #19
I understood it perfectly, but a newby might have thought you were supporting absolute motion, which we both know isn't so.
 
  • #20
selfAdjoint said:
I understood it perfectly, but a newby might have thought you were supporting absolute motion, which we both know isn't so.
Understood. However, and here may be the beginning of a new thread, I quote pensively "you were supporting absolute motion, which we both know isn't so" ??

My questioning ?? about a preferred (absolute is too strong a term) frame is the question of Mach's Principle.

SR is rightly configured for empty space, we have space-time and a set of test particles that define that space and time by their interactions, yet do not perturb it. In such an empty space the principle of relativity, i.e. no preferred frames, holds its own. This is codified in the conservation of energy-momentum, or 'rest energy', or mass defined by the equation of 4-momentum.

We now introduce matter and their associated gravitational fields, which are interpreted in GR as a curvature of that space-time and carry forward the SR principle of no-preferred frames, the conservation of energy-momentum.

However if we now introduce Mach's Principle, which suggests the phenomenon of inertia ought to arise from accelerations with respect to the general mass distribution of the entire universe, then we might indeed choose a particular or preferred frame when masses are introduced, that which is the Centre of Mass frame of the system under investigation.

Cosmologically this will be that in which the CMB is globally isotropic, co-moving with the surface of last emission, and in the laboratory this will be the Centre of Mass of the Earth.

The interesting observation here is that the electron sitting on a lab table might be accelerating wrt to the freely falling frame preferred by GR as the Lorentzian inertial frame, but it is at rest wrt to the Earth preferred by Mach's Principle as the Centre of Mass frame.

Hence if both Maxwell and Mach are correct the electron should not be radiating and there is no problem over where the energy of any such radiation might come from!

Just food for thought.

- Garth
 
Last edited:
  • #21
Well, I don't believe in Mach's principle, because GR has had such success that it seems to rule it out. To reintroduce it now at this late date is to say that GR is insufficient among classical theories, and what would lead you to think that?
 
  • #22
Hi all,

It might be possible to form a curvature theory of electromagnetics if you start with the idea that each pair of charges is the source of the curvature rather than single particles.

juju
 
  • #23
Garth said:
I have had the opinion expressed in a university physics community that in fact such electrons do radiate, but at such a low power that it has not been detected. In which case the second part of my question comes into play, if so, where does this energy of radiation come from? The electron is just sitting there minding its own business!

I'm surprised this issue hasn't been resolved. It seems to me that the static nature of the charge relative to the observer at infinity means that it should not radiate from the viewpoint of the observer at infinity.
 
  • #24
Mass and energy cause curvature. Einstein spent much of the rest of his life after developing GR to try and include E-M theory as well, a unified field theory, but was unsuccessful; probably because he didn't know about the strong and the weak nuclear forces at the time, which have to be included as well.

Did you quote that from Brian Green's book: The Fabric of The Cosmos? Heh, I was just reading that today and I notice that there's a passage where he says the exact same thing you said. Good book.
 
  • #25
Entropy said:
Did you quote that from Brian Green's book: The Fabric of The Cosmos? Heh, I was just reading that today and I notice that there's a passage where he says the exact same thing you said. Good book.
No I didn't - a case of "great minds think alike, fools seldom differ" I guess!
Garth
 
  • #26
pervect said:
I'm surprised this issue hasn't been resolved. It seems to me that the static nature of the charge relative to the observer at infinity means that it should not radiate from the viewpoint of the observer at infinity.
So your observer at inifinity is co-moving with the Earth is she? A case for Aristotelian relativity?

Garth
 
Last edited:
  • #27
selfAdjoint said:
Well, I don't believe in Mach's principle, because GR has had such success that it seems to rule it out. To reintroduce it now at this late date is to say that GR is insufficient among classical theories, and what would lead you to think that?

So your electron on a lab table is accelerating, and radiating I presume (if you still believe in Maxwell), so where do you think its energy of radiation is coming from?

Garth
 
  • #28
Garth said:
So your electron on a lab table is accelerating, and radiating I presume (if you still believe in Maxwell), so where do you think its energy of radiation is coming from?

Garth

The downward force of gravity on the electron is balanced by the upward force of the table, so the net acceleration of the electron is zero, and it doesn't radiate.

In general the Standard model accounts for electromagnetic radiation and conserves energy. Wherever the electrical energy "comes from", it can't be Mach's principle because that, in denying GR, contradicts experiment.
 
  • #29
selfAdjoint said:
The downward force of gravity on the electron is balanced by the upward force of the table, so the net acceleration of the electron is zero, and it doesn't radiate.
hmmm.. Should not the frame of reference in which the electron is not accelerating be the locally Lorentzian freely falling one? The one in which physics is simple when analyzed locally? [MTW pg 4]

selfAdjoint said:
In general the Standard model accounts for electromagnetic radiation and conserves energy. Wherever the electrical energy "comes from", it can't be Mach's principle because that, in denying GR, contradicts experiment.

Unless that is there is another gravitational theory that fully includes Mach's Principle, which does not contradict experiment. May I commend Self Creation Cosmology which claims to be such a theory? [See posts/threads about it on these Forums]
 
  • #30
juju said:
It might be possible to form a curvature theory of electromagnetics if you start with the idea that each pair of charges is the source of the curvature rather than single particles.
Hi juju;
The Earth is full of charges and we would be either completely squashed by them or propelled into space, the electromagnetic force is so much stronger (~10^40) than the gravitational force. However we are not squashed/launched into space because the like and unlike charges cancel each other out. So I guess that a pair of charges probably wouldn't be a source of curvature because the nett 'force' or curvature would be zero.
Garth
 
  • #31
Garth said:
So your observer at inifinity is co-moving with the Earth is she? A case for Aristotelian relativity?

Garth

I'm not sure if you are saying that there will be some radiation due to the Earth's acceleration due to it's orbit around the sun (probably true, IMO, I wasn't being sufficiently nit picky when I responded) or whether you are talking about the relative velocity between the observer at infinity and the earth. The relative velocity shouldn't matter as far as the radiation issue goes - an electron moving at a constant velocity shouldn't radiate.
 
  • #32
Garth said:
hmmm.. Should not the frame of reference in which the electron is not accelerating be the locally Lorentzian freely falling one? The one in which physics is simple when analyzed locally? [MTW pg 4]

Whether or not radiation exists depends on the coordinates, it's not a physical invariant. Photon number is conserved by the Lorentz boost, but not by arbitrary coordinate changes. It's possible for the observer accelerating and co-moving with the electron not to see any radiation, while another observer accelerating with respect to it will see radiation.
 
  • #33
pervect said:
I'm not sure if you are saying that there will be some radiation due to the Earth's acceleration due to it's orbit around the sun (probably true, IMO, I wasn't being sufficiently nit picky when I responded) or whether you are talking about the relative velocity between the observer at infinity and the earth. The relative velocity shouldn't matter as far as the radiation issue goes - an electron moving at a constant velocity shouldn't radiate.
Thank you - however it is the relative acceleration that is important.

I don't think you can solve the issue by taking the r -> infinity limit, unless that is that boundary is co-moving with the Earth and thus make the Earth the centre of the universe in some sense!

pervect said:
Whether or not radiation exists depends on the coordinates, it's not a physical invariant. Photon number is conserved by the Lorentz boost, but not by arbitrary coordinate changes. It's possible for the observer accelerating and co-moving with the electron not to see any radiation, while another observer accelerating with respect to it will see radiation.
Two questions: 1. "Has the latter been demonstrated experimentally?"

I am thinking here of a situation in which the mutual acceleration is not gravitational (that is an added complication) but caused by the observer physically being boosted by a force.

and 2. "What is the source of the energy of such radiation?"

When you accelerate an electric charge you are doing work on it and some of that re-appears as radiation, however when the acceleration is "passive" either because it is the observer who accelerates, or because it is sitting passively and stationary in a gravitational field on a laboratory bench, then I question the source of such energy.

Garth
 
Last edited:
  • #34
Garth said:
I don't think you can solve the issue by taking the r -> infinity limit, unless that is that boundary is co-moving with the Earth and thus make the Earth the centre of the universe in some sense!

We are on different wavelengths here.

I'm a bit surprised you don't see why I've been talking about the observer at infinity.

Let me jog your memory a bit
In which case the second part of my question comes into play, if so, where does this energy of radiation come from?

The reason I brought up the observer at infinity was to answer the second part of your question. Do I really need to go through the whole spiel on asymptotic flatness and energy in GR again? I will if it serves some useful purpose - If I recall correctly you have your own theory with it's own view on energy conservation, but I'd hope you'd be interested in understanding the mainstream view. I believe I'm presenting the mainstream view reasonably fairly, but I'm not, alas, infallible. Anyway, if you want me to clarify this or talk about it more I will, but I'm hoping that pointing out my previous remarks on this topic will be enough.

Oh, yes, I guess I haven't mentioned what I see as "the solution". The main solution is that the detection or non-detection of radiation is observer dependent, it's not a physical invariant. It's also not strictly speaking a local pheomenon at all. Google finds (amusingly enough) pmb's webpage with a wide variety of quotes from the literature pointing out the observer dependent nature of the existence of radiation

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/falling_charge.htm

Two questions: 1. "Has the latter been demonstrated experimentally?"

Not as far as I know. I believe there were some experiments proposed to measure Unruh radiation, but I don't think they have been carried out, they will be very difficult. Unruh radiation is also a digression from the topic, the mechanism is different, but it illustrates the main point that the existence or non-existence of radiation is observer dependent.

I am thinking here of a situation in which the mutual acceleration is not gravitational (that is an added complication) but caused by the observer physically being boosted by a force.

I *think* that such an observer should see fields that look like radiation, but since the problem is notoriously tricky, and since I haven't actually carried out any calculations, take this with a grain of salt.

and 2. "What is the source of the energy of such radiation?"

When you accelerate an electric charge you are doing work on it and some of that re-appears as radiation, however when the acceleration is "passive" either because it is the observer who accelerates, or because it is sitting passively and stationary in a gravitational field on a laboratory bench, then I question the source of such energy.

Garth

Well, let me jog your memory again here. Just to be sure we're communicating, do you recall what I think is a necessary and sufficient condition for energy to be conserved in GR? (You don't have to wade through all my posts, just this one, to answer this question).
 
  • #35
Hi Garth,

I was thinking of a situation where each pair of charges only curved the space between the charges. Thus, in the aggregate these would cancel, but still exist locally.

juju
 
  • #36
pervect said:
We are on different wavelengths here.

I'm a bit surprised you don't see why I've been talking about the observer at infinity.
Earlier
pervect said:
I'm surprised this issue hasn't been resolved. It seems to me that the static nature of the charge relative to the observer at infinity means that it should not radiate from the viewpoint of the observer at infinity.
But the observer in question is the one in the local gravitational field - in the laboratory. Indeed with the Earth itself in the Sun's/galactic/intergalactic gravitational fields is not the concept of an observer co-moving at inifinity rather hypothetical?
pervect said:
The reason I brought up the observer at infinity was to answer the second part of your question. Do I really need to go through the whole spiel on asymptotic flatness and energy in GR again? I will if it serves some useful purpose - If I recall correctly you have your own theory with it's own view on energy conservation, but I'd hope you'd be interested in understanding the mainstream view. I believe I'm presenting the mainstream view reasonably fairly, but I'm not, alas, infallible. Anyway, if you want me to clarify this or talk about it more I will, but I'm hoping that pointing out my previous remarks on this topic will be enough.
It is the physical reality that I am trying to understand, whether that is modeled by the mainstream view, or mine, or anybody else's individual theories.
GR is an example of Noether's improper energy theorems and conserves energy-momentum and not in general energy. If a time-like killing vector exists it is possible to define a concept that behaves like energy, the covariant time-component of the 4momentum vector but in many cases it is the contravariant time component that is defined as energy, especially when considering the total energy of a static gravitating body and field as measured by an observer ‘at infinity’. The situation is confusing because energy is not conserved in GR and our natural inclination to want it be so forces an unnatural definition on the theory.
pervect said:
Oh, yes, I guess I haven't mentioned what I see as "the solution". The main solution is that the detection or non-detection of radiation is observer dependent, it's not a physical invariant. It's also not strictly speaking a local pheomenon at all. Google finds (amusingly enough) pmb's webpage with a wide variety of quotes from the literature pointing out the observer dependent nature of the existence of radiation

http://www.geocities.com/physics_world/falling_charge.htm
Thank you for Pete’s link. If I can quote from the sources he quotes;
1. ‘Classical Radiation from a Uniformly Accelerated Charge, Thomas Fulton, Fritz Rohrlich, Annals of Physics: 9, 499-517 (1960)’
"An electron which falls freely in a uniform gravitational field embedded in an inertial frame will radiate, and one which sits at rest on a table in the same field will not radiate; and these two statements do not contradict each other."
2. ‘Radiation from an Accelerated Charge and the Principle of Equivalence, A. Kovetz and G.E. Tauber, Am. J. Phys., Vol. 37(4), April 1969’
“A nonvanishing energy flux is found only if the charge is freely falling and the observer supported, or vice versa”
So 2 is saying that an inertial observer i.e. freely falling – with no forces acting on her – will observe radiation from the desk bound (supported) charge. Whereas 1. says not, the observer in case 1 is presumeably supported.
But again whence the energy? The fact the GR does not conserve energy does not in itself explain where the energy received by the inertial observer comes from.

The situation is confused, which is why Kirk T. McDonald in “Hawking Unruh radiation and radiation of a uniformly accelerated” (Pete’s link) concludes, “We
now see that the quantum view is richer than anticipated, and that Hawking- Unruh radiation provides at least a partial understanding of particle emission in uniform acceleration or gravitation.”

A partial understanding is better than none – but the case is not closed!

Garth
 
Last edited:
  • #37
I started to write a rather long and technical response, but it seems to me that I simply wind up repeating myself.

It's really very simple. If one is talking about system energy in GR, one is(or should be) talking about an asymptotically flat space-time to apply the usual formulas.

Let's take a very contrived example. Suppose we have a universe that consists of a single star (with optional planets), and a rocketship.

If the rocket accelerates, the star will move faster and faster. It will have more energy. The rocket's exhaust will have to exist, and it will have some energy, but by taking the limit where the star is a lot bigger than the rocket, it is obvious that the total energy of the rocket exhaust can be ignored, as can the rocket itself. So, in the limit, the energy of the universe from the viewpoint of the rocket is going up.

This is not a GR issue. The same thing happens in Newtonian mechanics. The only issue is, that we can no longer simply say "the rocket is not in an inertial frame" the way we used to in Newtonian mechanics. So we have to do something more complicated.

There's a perfectly good defintion for energy in GR with asymptotically flat space-times. You can also define energy in GR when you have only a time-like killing vector without asymptotic flatness, to some extent, but you have a calibration problem witht the formulas I've seen. (It's easy enough to come up with a conserved quantity when you have a time-like killing vector, but it's hard to scale this quantity correctly without an asymptotically flat space-time to serve as a reference. A conserved quantity remains conserved when multiplied by an arbitrary constant - setting the value of the constant in the usual manner requires asymptotic flatness).

In short, to define system energy, it is sufficient to have an asymptotically flat space-time (and it's close to necessary, as well as being sufficient).

If you really do want to understand reality, you should take a look at how asymptotic flatness defines energy in GR. You come up with oddball defintions of energy, then complain that they don't act the way you want. At least use one of the accepted notions of energy (such as Bondi mass, or ADM mass) - then complain that *they* doesn't work the way you want :smile: .

As far as practical issues go, they aren't as bad as you think. Compare and contrast

acceleration of Earth's sun due to galactic rotation (250 million year rotation period, 26,000 light years from center): 10^-10 m/s^2

moon's orbital accelration around earth: .002 m/s^2
earth-moon's acceleration around sun: .006 m/s^2

You're welcome to work out the galaxies acceleration due to the local group, if you can figure out how - I think you'll find that it's smaller than the sun's acceleration due to galactic rotation, so there's a general downward trend.

The trend is generally downward for the same reason that the night sky is black. (Of course, the reason the night sky is black isn't particularly obvious).
 
  • #38
If the rocket ship in your example turns off its engine and free falls towards the star then in its frame of reference the star/universe's energy continues to increase.

In GR energy is not conserved, in general, even for inertial observers.
That is what I have been saying all along! It is one of the starting points of SCC.

However the issue with the supported charge and free falling observer is whether the radiation actually exists and can be measured. Therefore, can energy be taken out of the system? Is any work being done, either by the support of the charge or the deviation of the observer from its geodesic - and if not whence the energy? In other words, is this a free lunch?

I am glad to see you seem to have the situation sorted, others do not!

Garth
 
  • #39
I'm going to take another shot at the more technical approach. But I've said it all before. I can still hope that it will "make sense" this time.

If a time-like killing vector exists it is possible to define a concept that behaves like energy, the covariant time-component of the 4momentum vector but in many cases it is the contravariant time component that is defined as energy

It's true that E0 is a constant of motion for particles following a geodesic. But this is a red herring. It does not lead to good defintion of the energy of a system. This should be no surprise, it's not even coordinate independent.

I'm assuming that is what we are interested in, yes? The energy of a system, not a constant of motion of a particle following a geodesic?

Several good and equivalent defintions for the energy M of a system with a timelike killing vector ka are:

a surface intergal
<br /> M = -\frac{1}{8 \pi} \int_S \epsilon_{abcd} \nabla^c k^d<br />
here \epsilon_{abcd} is the Levi-civita tensor normalized to be a volume element of the space-time, this is the surface intergal of a two form.

a volume intergal
<br /> M = \frac{1}{4 \pi} \int_{\Sigma} R_{ab} n^a k^b dV<br />

here Rab is the Ricci, and na is a unit future perpendicular to the volume element dV.

<br /> M = 2 \int_{\Sigma} (T_{ab} - \frac{1}{2} T g_{ab}) n^a k^b dV<br />

here Tab is the stress energy tensor, gab is the metric tensor, and na remains the unit future perpendicular to the volume element dV.

Note that this last expression illustrates why you can't just intergrate Tab overe a volume of space and expect to come up with a system energy . (Except as an approximation that's only valid in the weak field case).

These can all be found in Wald, pg 288-291

Now that we've talked about the easy case of a system with a timelike killing vector, let's talk about the harder case - what if you don't have a timelike killing vector.

Well, the idea is simple. If you don't have a killing vector that's timelike everywhere, maybe you have a killing vector that's asymptotically timlike, at infinity. We can then apply the first definition directly. If turns out that if you have an asymptotically flat space-time that's a vacuum at infinity, you do have killing vectors which are asymptotically timelike. To formulate this rigorously requires a defintion of conformal infinity. In this case, we also have to specify "which infinity" (it's null infinity, in the jargon of conformal infinity). It turns out

Fortunately ... the asymptotic symmetry group of null infinity has a preferred 4 parameter subgroup of translations, so the notion of "an asymptotic time translation" is well defined.

So, if I may conclude with a few words

asymptotic flatness, asymptotic flatness, and asymptotic flatness, are the three keys to energy conservation in standard GR.
 
  • #40
Agreed - which goes to show how slippery a concept energy is in GR.

However for ordinary energy 'book keeping', in experiments in the laboratory etc. we do not have the luxury of being able to integrate over the whole gravitational system out to an asymptotically flat null infinity.
We do experiments within a limited volume in which we keep an energy account and quite naturally expect energy to be conserved in such a closed system. It is in these cases that it is possible to question whether the approach of GR is adequate or not, and the detailed study of a supported electric charge in a gravitational field may be helpful in answering that question.

Garth
 
  • #41
juju said:
Hi Garth,

I was thinking of a situation where each pair of charges only curved the space between the charges. Thus, in the aggregate these would cancel, but still exist locally.

juju
Hi juju - your question and ideas have become a little lost in the discussion here!

You are taking the same approach as Einstein did when he tried to formulate a unified field theory. He wanted to explain the electromagnetic force in the same way as he explained the gravitational force by space-time curvature only he couldn't get it to work.
There is of course repulsion as well as attraction to explain together with the electric and magnetic fields. As pervect said earlier there is another theory, the Kaluza-Klein theory, which uses an extra dimension, and this helped towards developing string theory.
So yours are good fertile ideas.
Garth
 
Last edited:
  • #42
Garth said:
You are taking the same approach as Einstein did when he tried to formulate a unified field theory. He wanted to expalin the electromagnetic force in the same way as he expalined the gravitational force by space-time curvature only he couldn't get it to work.

See http://www.einstein-schrodinger.com/ . He got it to work. He makes some striking assumptions (a very large cosmological constant, etc.) but it's all legitimate EUFT.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #43
selfAdjoint said:
See http://www.einstein-schrodinger.com/ . He got it to work. He makes some striking assumptions (a very large cosmological constant, etc.) but it's all legitimate EUFT.
Thank you for that very interesting link, I shall download E & S's original papers and study them. Do you have any idea why, "This was supposedly disproven way back in 1953, but there are a few stubborn souls such as myself who still think it is correct, and who work to prove it", it was supposedly disproven?

A large cosmological constant might tie in with present questions about DE for example.
Garth
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #44
Hi Garth,

Here's are some link to information about other theories that unify gravity and electromagnetics within the general framework of GR.

http://www.americanantigravity.com/davidmaker.shtml

http://www.compukol.com/mendel/

http://www.aias.us/

Also, I understand that Roger Penrose also believes that the path to a unified field theory lies through GR, rather than QM.

Thanx

juju
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #45
Garth said:
Thank you for that very interesting link, I shall download E & S's original papers and study them. Do you have any idea why, "This was supposedly disproven way back in 1953, but there are a few stubborn souls such as myself who still think it is correct, and who work to prove it", it was supposedly disproven?

A large cosmological constant might tie in with present questions about DE for example.
Garth

Neither Einstein not Schroedinger, I believe, were able to derive Maxwell's equations as a limiting case of their theories. But also consider Hlavaty's Geometry of Einstein's Unified Theory circa 1958, which is cited in the papers I linked to. Hlavaty claimed to have derived the "Maxwell" (i.e. Faraday) tensor, which turned out to be not at all obvious.
 
  • #46
Gonzolo said:
If theorists (starting with A. E.) can make a theory about spacetime curvature caused by mass (GR), couldn't there be a similar theory where some spacetime curvature is caused by electric charges? Both are F = k/r^2 in elementary physics.
If there is a configuration of charges which has an associated energy distribution then the mass associated with that energy will curve spacetime. I am not conviced that a single charge can do that since the energy of a charge distribution is defined as the potential energy of the distribution and that energy is the energy required to assemble the distribution. One does not assemble a point charge. As a matter of fact if one follows the derivation of the ennergy in the electric field then one sees that it starts by assembling point charges by bringing them from infiity to a finite distance to each other. One starts with a single point charge and a starting energy of zero. One then ends up with a relationship for the energy in terms of a sumation. One then takes the limit and goes to an integral and one can then show that there is a one to one relationship between the total potetial energy (i.e. energy required to assemble the distribution) and the E field. But one assumes that if there are finite discrete charges then the initial energy of the configuration is zero. So there is no energy in the field of a point charge - At least in my opinion ... today ... as of 7:41am. However I had some percocet not to long ago so it might be the drugs. :biggrin:

I can justify it though. If one takes a dumbell consisting of two identical point charges held together by a rod then the momentum of the rod at low speed will be p = Mv where

M = 2me + mrod + mem

The first term represents the bare mass of the charges, the second the bare mass of the rod and the last is the mass of the EM field as measured in the rest frame. If the mass of the EM field includes the energy of the point charges then the mometum is zero. If the mass of the EM field includes only the mutual potential energy then the mass is finite. This makes sense for many reasons. If this actually true then EM field of a point charge carries no momentum either. For details see Griffiths and Owen's paper Mass renormalization in classical electrodynamics, Am. J. Phys.

A postulate could be that an electron in an elevator (made of electons, or a negatively charged inside surface) cannot tell the difference whether :

1. the elevator is stopped and that there is a large + charge underneath or :

2. the elevator is accelerating upwards

Where does this lead? What happens if you take magnetism into account?
I have no idea what your saying here but I will say this. The weight of a charged particle will depend on the spacetime curvature. If there is no spacetime curvature then the weight of the charge will not tell you if you are in a curved spacetime. But if there is spacetime curvature then the weight of the charge will be different given the same local acceleration. This is due to the fact that a charged particle does not follow a geodesic in spacetime. The field of the charge is not localized and thus the field can "feel out" the surrounding spacetime and is thus not a locall phenomena. Clifford Will wrote a paper on the weight of a charged particle in a Scharzchild spacetime.
It turns out that the weight is a function of charge (I think I recall that the charge weighed less but am not sure). Thus if one is in a box in a Schwarzschild spacetime then you can tell if you're not in an accelerating box in flat spacetime by using a charged particle and weighing it. This is not cheating the equivalence principle since the fields are not local and the equivalece principle, when applied to a curved spacetime, is a local phenomena and the field of a charge is not a local phenomena. Think of this as using the field of a charge to probe spacetime for curvature.


Pete
 
  • #47
pmb_phy said:
I have no idea what your saying here but I will say this...Pete

Just trying to make an electric analogy with a mass in an elevator, which cannot tell whether it is accelerating or near a planet. I have pretty much given up on this (idea and thread) for the time being, due to some of the points that were mentioned + the fact I believe that there is a strict asymetry between masses and charges : m -> \gamma m, while q -> q (invariant?). So the analogy has many limits.
 
  • #48
Gonzolo said:
Just trying to make an electric analogy with a mass in an elevator, which cannot tell whether it is accelerating or near a planet. I have pretty much given up on this (idea and thread) for the time being, due to some of the points that were mentioned + the fact I believe that there is a strict asymetry between masses and charges : m -> \gamma m, while q -> q (invariant?). So the analogy has many limits.

As I've explained, you can distinguish whether you're accelerating or near a planet (i.e. Schwarzschild spacetime, curved spacetime etc.). Just weigh the charge. The weight is spacetime curvature dependant.

Pete
 
  • #49
Garth said:
Agreed - which goes to show how slippery a concept energy is in GR.

However for ordinary energy 'book keeping', in experiments in the laboratory etc. we do not have the luxury of being able to integrate over the whole gravitational system out to an asymptotically flat null infinity.
We do experiments within a limited volume in which we keep an energy account and quite naturally expect energy to be conserved in such a closed system. It is in these cases that it is possible to question whether the approach of GR is adequate or not, and the detailed study of a supported electric charge in a gravitational field may be helpful in answering that question.

Garth

From a practical or experimental point of view, I think the problem is more or less the opposite - finding strong enough fields / high enough curvatures that these effects manifest.

For instance, the weak-field approximation of integrating Tab to get the total energy is "good enough" to handle anything in the solar system, via the PPN approximation even though it's not the actual correct expression for the total energy of a system. Really strong fields (like those near a black hole), would be needed to find any departure even in theory.

Furthermore, there are experimental problems in finding, for instance, Tab in the Sun experimentally to carry out the intergration to verify the above statement. It's much more practical to compute the mass of the sun by observing satellite orbits and studying it's far gravitational field than it is to actually measure its stress-energy tensor, or even its conventional density, everywhere in its interior and integrate.
 
  • #50
pervect said:
Whether or not radiation exists depends on the coordinates, it's not a physical invariant. Photon number is conserved by the Lorentz boost, but not by arbitrary coordinate changes. It's possible for the observer accelerating and co-moving with the electron not to see any radiation, while another observer accelerating with respect to it will see radiation.

Let's say the charge is surrounded by detectors (let's say photomultipliers). Either the detectors will register a count can't be observer dependent. Either they click or they don't. But you are saying that some obersever could see the detector click while no radiation is emitted by the charge.

So I guess that from the point of view of that observer, the detector would be picking up vacuum fluctuations? Is that the usual explanation?

If this is correct, then it seems to me an amazing fact that such a simple consideration (thinking about a charge in the context of GR) leads to a quantum physics concept (quantum fluctuations)! It's as if trying to marry GR and E&M points to the need for quantum physics, and I have never seen things presented this way.

Pat
 
Back
Top