A Hydrogen economy: Be a part of the change

AI Thread Summary
The discussion emphasizes the potential of hydrogen as a key solution to the world's energy needs, with advocates suggesting that a significant transition could occur within 10 to 25 years if prioritized. The National Hydrogen Association is seeking involvement from physics and engineering students to support this emerging industry, which is seen as a viable career path. Various methods for hydrogen production, including biological, chemical, and solar processes, are being explored, highlighting its advantages in energy storage and clean combustion. Concerns are raised about the efficiency and environmental impact of hydrogen production methods, particularly those relying on fossil fuels like coal. The conversation underscores the need for political support and infrastructure development to make hydrogen a competitive energy source.
  • #51
Originally posted by russ_watters
I'm not sure of the actual relationship there. The site says "hosted by " LANL. By the look of it, its a personal site of several scientists hosted by LANL. It hasn't been updated in 7 years.I'm trying to think of an analogy that will get this point across - clearly I have failed so far. How about this: You find a genie and he gives you three wishes and asks what your first wish is. You say: 'hydrogen fuel cells for cars!' He's going to charge you two wishes for that - one for the hydrogen fuel infrastructure/vehicles, and one for replacing 14 terawwats of electric generation with solar power.

I grabbed a quick link for reference. I think the paper still addresses some of these issues. It's not as if a lot has changed in seven years.

Next, I understand your objections. These were mine also. I wanted to take some time and dig up some comprehensive discussions of this. I can say for starters that the University of Hawaii is working with biological H2 production. Anyway, I will need a little time to get this all together. As you are well aware, many issues are involved here.

Edit: and Russ...don't worry. I have faith that our mechanical engineers are smart [edit: brilliant] enough to solve these problems! :wink:


Edit #2: You are thinking in terms of a tiered [centralized] distribution system. I agree that we could not change in the way that you are thinking. That's one of the benefits of H2: We can produce it virtually anywhere. For starters, before we start counting the cost, what is the energy savings since we avoid drilling, pumping [environmental concerns and real costs], shipping, refinement, and distribution...per gallon? .
 
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  • #52
BIOMASS TO H2

Originally posted by russ_watters
Joe touches on this: without first converting the entire electric power grid to renewable energy (then expanding it to meet the new load), it must be assumed that hydrogen will be manufactured using existing generation capacity and/or technology. Since virtually all new electric generation capacity is fossil fuel (gas turbine), virtually all of the energy used to manufacture the hydrogen would just be re-directed fossil fuel energy.

This idea of converting the electrical infrastructure is not the solution. This again is thinking in terms of a tiered distribution system. However, before getting into this more deeply, I will list some of the science being done for various methods of H2 production. Let me know when you have calculated to complete energy cost per gallon for gasoline. I am assuming that thus far, no one knows this answer. Nonetheless, I will begin to account for these energy costs for H2. Of course a full energy accounting for gasoline will also be needed for comparison.

Here are a few excerpts from the biomass approach to H2 production. Please note the 80-90% yields.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/pdfs/hydrogen_biomass.pdf

State of the Art and Research Challenges
Thomas A. Milne, Carolyn C. Elam and Robert J. Evans
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Golden, CO USA

A Report for the International Energy Agency
Agreement on the Production and Utilization of Hydrogen
Task 16, Hydrogen from Carbon-Containing Materials


DIRECT PRODUCTION FROM WHOLE BIOMASS

Gasification

Thermal/Steam/Partial Oxidation

This section briefly covers processes that will be addressed in detail in a new cooperative Task of the IEA Bioenergy Agreement. It is included here for completeness of the survey under the IEA Hydrogen Agreement Task 16, Hydrogen from Carbon-Containing Materials. [Dr. Suresh Babu (USA) at the Gas Technology Institute can be contacted for details of the IEA Bioenergy Agreement.s gasification-to-hydrogen plans.] Consideration of hydrogen from carbonaceous materials has a long history in the .hydrogen. literature. At the First World Hydrogen Energy Conference, Tsaros et al. (1976) (USA) reported on three routes to hydrogen using sub-bituminous coal. (Their ultimate goal was liquid fuels.) The processes considered were: (1) Koppers-Totzek; (2) U-Gas and (3) Steam-iron. Hydrogen yields of 93-96% of theoretical were predicted. Soo et al. (1978) (USA) present calculations and experimental data on steam processes to convert coal to hydrogen. A large excess of steam (4 moles water to 1 mole carbon) at 1300°C produces up to 90% hydrogen without the need for shift conversion. It was claimed that their process is a better source of hydrogen than Hygas or Steam-iron. Eliminating the need for pure oxygen renders this process superior to the large, Totzek and Synthane processes.

A technical note by Williams (1980) (USA) makes a case for efficient hydrogen production from coal using centrifuge separation of hydrogen from other gases following steam gasification at 1100-5000°C. Recent advances in new materials developed by the aerospace industry made it appear possible to develop such a gaseous centrifuge. The U-Gas® process for producing hydrogen from coal is discussed by Dihu and Patel (1983) (USA). U-Gas® has been developed by IGT from over 50 years of coalconversion research. It comprises a single-stage, non-slagging, fluidized-bed gasifier using oxygen or air. Pilot plant results and economic projections of the cost of hydrogen are given. Pilot-scale experiments in the steam gasification of charred cellulosic waste material are discussed in Rabah and Eddighidy (1986) (Egypt). The beneficial effects of some inorganic salts, such as chlorides, carbonates and chromates, on the reaction rate and production cost of hydrogen were investigated.

A large number of single research studies have appeared from 1981-2000, from researchers in many countries around the world. Brief notes follow. McDonald et al. (1981) (New Zealand) proposed extracting protein from grass and lucern and using the residue for hydrogen production (among other fuels). Saha et al. (1982, 1984) (India) reported using a laboratory-scale fluidized-bed autothermal gasifier to gasify carbonaceous materials in steam. Further studies with agricultural wastes were planned. Cocco and Costantinides (1998) (Italy) describe the pyrolysis-gasification of biomass to hydrogen. More-or-less conventional gasification of biomass and wastes has been employed with the goal of maximizing hydrogen production. Researchers at the Energy and Environmental Research Center at Grand Forks have studied biomass and coal catalytic gasification for hydrogen and methane (Hauserman & Timpe, 1992, and Hauserman...


PRODUCTION OF STORABLE INTERMEDIATES FROM BIOMASS PARTIAL CONVERSION

Hydrogen from Biomass-Derived Pyrolysis Oils Laboratory work using this approach has been conducted at NREL (USA), starting in 1993 (see Chornet et al., 1994; Wang et al., 1994; Wang et al., 1995; Chornet et al., 1995; and Chornet et al., 1996 a, b, c). Early papers present the concept of fast pyrolysis for converting biomass and wastes to oxygenated oils. These oils are subsequently cracked and steam-reformed to yield hydrogen and CO as final products (Mann et al., 1994). The 1995 Wang report presents the chemical and thermodynamic basis of this approach, the catalysis related to steam reforming of the oxygenates, and the techoeconomic integration of the process. In first experiments, Nibased catalysts were favorable (80% of theoretical maximum hydrogen yield has been obtained), but enough CO remained to require the addition of a water-gas shift step. Low biomass costs are needed to produce hydrogen economically since feedstock cost is a major component of production cost. In Wang et al. (1995) laboratory and bench-scale studies of model compounds of oxygenates known to be present in pyrolysis oil were presented. Ni-based catalysts were used in microscale laboratory tests to identify the conversion products. All model compounds were successfully steam reformed. Bench-scale, fixed-bed tubular reactor experiments indicate that control of coke formation was a key aspect of the process. Loss of activity of the nickel catalysts after a few hours forced periodic regeneration. It was shown that
CO2 from a pressure swing absorption step effectively removed the coke.

Six progress reports in 1996 and 1997 document the systematic exploration of the pyrolysis oilto-hydrogen process. In Chornet et al. (1996a) bench-scale experiments determined the performance of nickel-catalysts in steam reforming of acetic acid, hydroxyacetaldehyde, furfural, and syringol. All proceeded rapidly. Time-on-stream experiments were started. In Chornet et al., (1996b), Czernik et al., (1996), and Wang et al. (1997a), the approach of using extractable, valuable co-products with the balance of the oil converted to hydrogen is explored. Depending on biomass feedstock costs, the selling price for steam reforming hydrogen is predicted to fall within the then current market price of hydrogen ($5-$15/GJ). One of the most promising coproducts from whole bio-oil is an adhesive. In Chornet et al., (1996c) economics and plant design are summarized. The initial refereed journal reports of the above work are in Wang et al. (1996), and Wang et al. (1997b). The first paper documents the catalytic steam reforming results for acetic acid and hydroxyacetaldehyde using a micro-reactor and molecular-beam mass spectrometry. The second paper consolidates the early work on model compounds, nickel-catalysts and reforming of both whole bio-oils and oils after extraction of valuable chemicals. Economics, process designs and thermodynamics are discussed. In 1998, the NREL group published data on bench-scale reforming results from model compounds, the aqueous-fraction of poplar pyrolysis oil and whole pyrolysis oil with commercial nickel-based steam reforming catalysts. Hydrogen yields as high as 85% were obtained .
 
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  • #53
Small scale reformer technologies

REVIEW OF SMALL STATIONARY REFORMERS FOR HYDROGEN PRODUCTION
I. INTRODUCTION
II. HYDROGEN SUPPLY OPTIONS FOR THE TRANSPORTATION SECTOR
III.DESCRIPTION OF SMALL-SCALE REFORMER TECHNOLOGIES
IV. CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FUTURE COOPERATIVE
PROJECTS

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/pdfs/small_scale_reformers_rev.pdf

Dr. Joan M. Ogden
Research scientist
Center for Energy and Environmental Studies
Princeton University
Princeton, NJ 08544
Phone: (609) 258-5470
 
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  • #54
Solar H2 production

SOLAR PHOTOPRODUCTION OF HYDROGEN
by
James R. Bolton
Department of Chemistry
The University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario, Canada N6A 5B7
IEA Agreement on the Production and Utilisation of Hydrogen

The concept of using solar energy to drive the conversion of water into hydrogen and oxygen has been examined, from the standpoints of: potential and ideal efficiencies, measurement of (and how to calculate) solar hydrogen production efficiencies, a survey of the state-of-the-art, and a technological assessment of various solar hydrogen options.

The analysis demonstrates that the ideal limit of the conversion efficiency for 1 sun irradiance is ¡_31% for a single photosystem scheme and ¡_42% for a dual photosystem scheme. However, practical considerations indicate that real efficiencies will not likely exceed ¡_10% and ¡_16% for single and dual photosystem schemes, respectively.

Four types of solar photochemical hydrogen systems have been identified: photochemical systems, semiconductor systems, photobiological systems and hybrid and other systems. Asurvey of the state-of-the-art of these four types has been presented. The four system types (and their sub-types) have been examined in a technological assessment, where each has been examined as to efficiency, potential for improvement and long-term functionality. Four solar hydrogen systems have been selected as showing sufficient promise for further research and development:

1. Photovoltaic cells plus an electrolyzer

2. Photoelectrochemical cells with one or more semiconductor
electrodes

3. Photobiological systems

4. Photodegradation systems

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/pdfs/solar_photoproduction.pdf
 
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  • #55
Photoelectrolytic and Photobiological Production of Hydrogen

From:
IEA Strategic Plan

The strategy of the IEA's Hydrogen Program is to facilitate, coordinate, and maintain innovative RD&D activities through international cooperation and information exchange. Seven areas are targeted: Technology, Energy Security, Environmental, Economic, Market, Deployment, and Outreach.


Photoelectrolytic Production of Hydrogen

Task 14, Photoelectrolytic Production of Hydrogen, is a continuation on the efforts of the now completed Task 10, Photoproduction of Hydrogen, in which there was a subtask devoted to the photoelectrolytic approaches to hydrogen production. The following are the accomplishments of that earlier work and the basis for the new task:

A solar-to-hydrogen efficiency of 16%—the highest reported efficiency to date—was achieved using a tandem photo-electrochemical cell. The materials used in this cell are still too costly for this to be an economically competitive technology in the near term. However, lower cost materials have shown similar promise.

Standards for measuring and reporting solar efficiencies were defined. These standards are essential for making realistic comparisons between various photo-based systems for hydrogen production.

Promising economics have been found when hydrogen production is performed in conjunction with photodegradation of organic waste. Efficiency improvements seen with organic pollutants (from 4% up to 9%), combined with the cost benefit of combining degradation of organic pollutants with hydrogen production, show great promise for commercial application.

Photobiological Production of Hydrogen

Task 15, Photobiological Production of Hydrogen, is a continuation of the efforts of the now completed Task 10, Photoproduction of Hydrogen, in which there was a subtask devoted to the photobiological approaches to hydrogen production. The following are the accomplishments and contributions of the task and the basis for the new task:
The University of Hawaii (USA) designed, built, and tested a process-development-scale photo-bioreactor. This reactor has lower capital and operating costs than other designs.

System analyses and process economics were reviewed for hydrogen production using hydrogenase-based bioreactor systems.

A database on hydrogen-producing microorganisms was established.

The task provided sponsorship for the BioHydrogen '97 meeting in Waikoloa, Hawaii, USA. This meeting brought together academic, industrial, and governmental scientists from more than ten countries to share recent technological advances in biological hydrogen production. Presentation areas included the fundamentals of biological processes, photosynthetic bacteria, cyanobacteria, green algae, fermentations, mixed-hybrid systems, and photobioreactors. The Hydrogen Agreement provided support for the publication of the proceedings from the conference (published this past year).

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/accomplishments.html#photoelectrolytic
 
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  • #56
Hydrogen by Catalytic Decomposition of Water

Researchers at DOE’s National Energy Technology Laboratory and Argonne National Laboratory have patented a "Method of Generating Hydrogen by Catalytic Decomposition of Water." The invention potentially leapfrogs current capital and energy intensive processes that produce hydrogen from fossil fuels or through the electrolysis of water. According to co-inventor Arun Bose, "Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis, but the high voltage requirements are a commercial barrier. The invention provides a new route for producing hydrogen
from water by using mixed proton-electron conducting membranes." Water is decomposed on the feed surface. The hydrogen is ionized and protons and electrons travel concurrently through the membrane. On the permeate
side, they combine into hydrogen molecules.

http://www.netl.doe.gov/

See also:
Abstract
A method for producing hydrogen includes providing a feed stream comprising water; contacting at least one proton conducting membrane adapted to interact with the feed stream; splitting the water into hydrogen and oxygen at a predetermined temperature; and separating the hydrogen from the oxygen. Preferably the proton conducting membrane comprises a proton conductor and a second phase material. Preferable proton conductors suitable for use in a proton conducting membrane include a lanthanide element, a Group VIA element and a Group IA or Group IIA element such as barium, strontium, or combinations of these elements. More preferred proton conductors include yttrium. Preferable second phase materials include platinum, palladium, nickel, cobalt, chromium, manganese, vanadium, silver, gold, copper, rhodium, ruthenium, niobium, zirconium, tantalum, and combinations of these. More preferably second phase materials suitable for use in a proton conducting membrane include nickel, palladium, and combinations of these. The method for generating hydrogen is preferably preformed in the range between about 600.degree. C. and 1,700.degree. C.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,468,499.WKU.&OS=PN/6,468,499&RS=PN/6,468,499
 
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  • #57
DENSE CERAMIC MEMBRANES FOR HYDROGEN SEPARATION

DENSE CERAMIC MEMBRANES FOR HYDROGEN SEPARATION

U. (Balu) Balachandran, T. H. Lee, S. Wang, G. Zhang and S. E. Dorris
Energy Technology Division, Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne, IL 60439

Corresponding author: U. (Balu) Balachandran, phone 630-252-4250; fax 630-252-3604;
email: balu@anl.gov

ABSTRACT
Novel cermet (i.e., ceramic-metal composite) membranes have been developed for separating hydrogen from product streams that are generated during coal gasification, methane partial oxidation, and watergas shift reactions. The hydrogen permeation rate in the temperature range of 600-900°C has been measured for three classes (ANL-1, -2, and -3) of cermet membranes. ANL-3 membranes provided the
highest hydrogen flux: ≈20 cm3(STP)/min-cm2 for a 40-µm-thick sample at 900oC using 100% H2 as the feed gas. The effects of membrane thickness and hydrogen partial pressure on hydrogen flux indicate
that the bulk diffusion of hydrogen is rate-limiting for ANL-3 membranes with thickness >40 µm. ANL-3 membranes were tested in simulated syngas (66% H2, 33% CO, 1% CO2) at several temperatures
for times approaching ≈200 h, and no degradation in performance was observed. The lack of degradation in simulated syngas suggests that the membrane is chemically stable and may be suitable for
long-term operation.

http://www.netl.doe.gov/
 
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  • #58
HYDROGEN FROM COAL

Executive Summary:
This report examines current and advanced technologies to produce hydrogen from coal. The performance and economics of these technologies are analyzed including configurations for carbon sequestration. For comparison, the economics of producing
hydrogen from natural gas and photovoltaic (PV)/water electrolysis are included. Ten hydrogen production cases are analyzed in this report. Three of the cases (cases 1 through 3) produce only hydrogen and three (cases 4 through 6) are coproduction cases that co-produce hydrogen and electric power. Cases 7 and 8 use solid oxide fuel cells
(SOFC) for electric power production and cases 9 and 10 coproduce hydrogen and power using SOFC technology. Case 1 is a Texaco quench gasification system with conventional acid gas removal and pressure swing adsorption (PSA) for hydrogen recovery. There is no carbon sequestration in this case. This is a single train 3,000 tons per day (TPD) plant producing 131 MMSCFD of hydrogen. Case 2 is similar to Case 1 except that all of the carbon dioxide is removed prior to the PSA unit. It is then assumed that this concentrated and compressed stream of carbon dioxide can be sequestered for an additional cost of $10 per ton of carbon. The configuration for Case 3 uses advanced E-gas gasification with hot gas cleanup in
combination with a ceramic membrane system operating at about 600 degrees Centigrade that is capable of shifting and separating hydrogen from the clean synthesis gas. If it is assumed that the cost of the ceramic membrane system is equal to the combined cost of
an equivalent conventional amine and PSA system, the RSP of the hydrogen is estimated to be $5.89/MMBtu. In Case 4, two trains of advanced entrained gasification are used and the coal feed is 6,000 TPD. One train makes synthesis gas to feed the PSA unit for hydrogen production and the other train makes synthesis gas to feed a combined cycle power plant. Case 5 is similar to Case 4 except that all the synthesis gas is shifted and after cooling and shift the carbon dioxide is removed in a bulk carbon dioxide removal
system for sequestration. Case 6 is similar to Case 3 except that two trains of gasification are used that process 6000 TPD of coal to provide synthesis gas to the 600 degrees C ceramic membrane separation device. Tables ES 1 and ES 2 summarize the results of this analysis for hydrogen from coal and for coproduction of hydrogen and power.

Again, search Hydrogen
http://www.netl.doe.gov/
 
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  • #59
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  • #60


Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Let me know when you have calculated to complete energy cost per gallon for gasoline.
I'm not sure what you are asking here. Gas costs about $1.50 /gal where I live. Thats the complete cost to take the gas from a well in Kuait to the gas tank of my car. Could you rephrase?

A couple of important things to remember about hydrogen production: If the reactants are a fossil fuel and oxygen, the products are ALWAYS the same, regardless of the various intermediate reactions. In other words, if you take methane and extract the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen, the products are still the same as if you had burned the methane to begin with: water and carbon dioxide. It may be slightly more efficient, but it doesn't address the root problems - it still requires fossil fuel and still gives off greenhouse gasses.

Also, electrolysis is electrolysis. Though it may be possible to catalyze it to reduce the voltage required (I'm not sure why voltage would be a problem in the first place - your tv operates at 10,000V) the POWER required is always going to be the same according to the first law of thermodynamics.
 
  • #61


Originally posted by russ_watters
I'm not sure what you are asking here. Gas costs about $1.50 /gal where I live. Thats the complete cost to take the gas from a well in Kuait to the gas tank of my car. Could you rephrase?

Sure. How many gallons of gasoline, also diesel and electric power, go into every gallon of gasoline that you put into your car - the complete energy cost from ground to tank. If we use cost as a basis, then it would seem that power equivalent to ten gallons of gasoline go into every gallon of gasoline. This since the price per barrel for crude goes from $5 to $50 from beginning to end.

A couple of important things to remember about hydrogen production: If the reactants are a fossil fuel and oxygen, the products are ALWAYS the same, regardless of the various intermediate reactions. In other words, if you take methane and extract the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen, the products are still the same as if you had burned the methane to begin with: water and carbon dioxide. It may be slightly more efficient, but it doesn't address the root problems - it still requires fossil fuel and still gives off greenhouse gasses.

But in the literature you will note that the CO2 is recaptured as a part of the process. Also, coal provides a substantial energy reservoir that is US owned and operated. No more politics. This gives a giant boost the H2 source problem, but still provides a clean alternative. I have always seen clean coal technologies as viable.

Also, electrolysis is electrolysis. Though it may be possible to catalyze it to reduce the voltage required (I'm not sure why voltage would be a problem in the first place - your tv operates at 10,000V) the POWER required is always going to be the same according to the first law of thermodynamics.

I think this is simply a matter that more efficient processes are being investigated with some success.

Edit: How lossy are the power supplies and tranformers for electrolysis? I think that high voltage flyback circuits and such get down to 40 and 50% efficiencies. Of course we have a theoretical limit based on the bond energies of the water; but we lose energy getting to the requried voltages.
 
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  • #62


Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Sure. How many gallons of gasoline, also diesel and electric power, go into every gallon of gasoline that you put into your car - the complete energy cost from ground to tank. If we use cost as a basis, then it would seem that power equivalent to ten gallons of gasoline go into every gallon of gasoline. This since the price per barrel for crude goes from $5 to $50 from beginning to end.
Are you literally saying 9 gallons (hypothetically) goes straight down the drain? The difference in cost isn't waste its transportation, distribution, and profit. Very little gasoline is actually wasted during refining. I think $1.50 really is the number you are looking for.
But in the literature you will note that the CO2 is recaptured as a part of the process.
Recaptured how?
Also, coal provides a substantial energy reservoir that is US owned and operated. No more politics. This gives a giant boost the H2 source problem, but still provides a clean alternative. I have always seen clean coal technologies as viable.
I agree with the first part, but "clean"? Burning of coal has one product: Carbon dioxide. Its the dirtiest fuel we have. Sure there are scrubbers and things to make it cleanER (and of course the same goes for oil), but it still can't be characterized as "clean."
How lossy are the power supplies and tranformers for electrolysis?
Not very. Hydrogen production by electrolysis and recombination through fuel cells are both highly efficient processes. Remember, before it gets to your house the electricity you use is stepped up and down through a wide range of voltages (up to 500,000V) with the goal of MINIMIZING losses.
 
  • #63


Originally posted by russ_watters
Are you literally saying 9 gallons (hypothetically) goes straight down the drain? The difference in cost isn't waste its transportation, distribution, and profit. Very little gasoline is actually wasted during refining. I think $1.50 really is the number you are looking for.

What about the energy to drill the well, pump the oil, pipe the oil, ship the oil, pump the oil, crack the crude [not waste, energy], and then distribute the gasoline?

Recaptured how?

I have not read in detail how this is accomplished. I know that this is mentioned often as not being a problem.

I agree with the first part, but "clean"? Burning of coal has one product: Carbon dioxide. Its the dirtiest fuel we have. Sure there are scrubbers and things to make it cleanER (and of course the same goes for oil), but it still can't be characterized as "clean."

The advocates of coal claim that this is possible even for coal combustion. I can only assume that these assertions are true. Combustion is very different however from the steam processes explored for H2 extraction.

Hydrogen production by electrolysis and recombination through fuel cells are both highly efficient processes. Remember, before it gets to your house the electricity you use is stepped up and down through a wide range of voltages (up to 500,000V) with the goal of MINIMIZING losses.

But goals to minimize are not the same as nearly lossless. Xformers can range widely in their efficiencies. Granted, PWM and PFM using FETs and IGBTs is very good for low voltage [<1000 VAC] - up to 95% in some applications. But for very high voltages the losses sharply rise. I can only assume that this accounts for the alternative strategies. I posted the sources. Why don’t you email him and ask?
 
  • #64


Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
What about the energy to drill the well, pump the oil, pipe the oil, ship the oil, pump the oil, crack the crude [not waste, energy], and then distribute the gasoline?
If that wasn't part of that $1.50, then Exxon wouldn't turn a profit.
I know that this is mentioned often as not being a problem.
Famous last words - like everything else in this thread, the devil is in the details.
Why don’t you email him and ask?
Naa. Not that important.
 
  • #65


Originally posted by russ_watters
If that wasn't part of that $1.50, then Exxon wouldn't turn a profit.

But it speaks to how much demand actually exists. Are you afraid to deal with the facts?

Famous last words - like everything else in this thread, the devil is in the details.

Like every other objection that you've made, these too can be answered with 10 minutes of research.


Naa. Not that important.
Sorry. I thought you were trying to be objective.
 
  • #66


Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
But it speaks to how much demand actually exists. Are you afraid to deal with the facts?
What? It IS a fact that EVERYTHING involved in the production of that gallon of gas is included in that $1.50. I really don't understand what you are trying to say here. What is this 'fact' that I'm not dealing with?
Like every other objection that you've made, these too can be answered with 10 minutes of research.
Well, no, that's not what I meant. If the solution was that easy, it would already have been implimented.

There really is no need for this thread to be so antagonistic.
 
  • #67


Originally posted by russ_watters
There really is no need for this thread to be so antagonistic.

Sorry. You're right. I was just coming back to tone down my comments. I was really peed off at a programming problem that I'm fighting when I read your responses.

Originally posted by russ_watters
What? It IS a fact that EVERYTHING involved in the production of that gallon of gas is included in that $1.50.

Two issues exist here:

First the soft point; this $1.50 does not represent the true cost, but I don't want to get off the main point.

Next, if we are to make a fair comparison of H2 to oil, then we must know how much of the infrastructure [in terms of energy] exists just to support the oil supply. If we can reduce the energy demand by 50% just becuase we are no longer shipping and refining oil, then we have less work to do with H2; less energy to supply. [I don't want you to get a ticket from the 2nd Law Police].

If the solution was that easy, it would already have been implimented.

I have no problem with addressing the issues, but if we dismiss an option due to assumed implicit problems, we may miss key alternatives. I didn't want to leave this open [CO2recapture] as a likely problem, when based on what I have read in the literature, this is not the case.

Many challenges exist, but there is a difference between challenges and show stoppers.
 
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  • #68


Originally posted by russ_watters
If the solution was that easy, it would already have been implimented.

Not true. oil,oil,oil,oil,oil,oil,oil,oil,oil,oil,oil...

And you make my point exactly: It is time to begin implementing this - not all at once, not all options, not so as to turn the world's economy upside down, but as a real start. We can begin testing concepts in small test communities located in wind friendly areas right now. We can promote interest in these technologies :wink:. We can create discussions in congress about competitive strategies. We can write to our representatives. But most importantly, we need bright people to look at this and figure out how to make this work. It is now within our grasp, or nearly so, to make this change. The national H2 Association argues that the biggest hurdle is education.

By the way Russ, Senator Tom Harkin is known as Mr. Hydrogen. I am sure that he was already one of your favorites.
 
  • #69
Time to Escape From the Grid? Wired.com

The high cost of everything from photovoltaic cells to batteries is likely to keep such home-power systems from becoming widely used any time soon, notwithstanding events such as last week's massive power failure in the Northeast and Midwest, said professor Lester Lave of Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60089,00.html
 
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  • #70
I notice he doesn't seem to mention fuel cells. Or did I just skim over it?
 
  • #71
general opinion

After reading the thread, the only real benefice I find with the hydrogen economy is we can produce hydrogen vehicles (at my city works an experimental bus covering a line) cleanest that the oil ones. It’s a very good thing, because the oil combustion is the first cause of pollution in cities.

But, in my opinion, it remains the problem of production. We need energy to produce any form of packaged hydrogen. So, we must to return to the traditional energy production sources (oil, coil, nuclear, wind ...).

Use ecological sources to produce hydrogen has the same problems that use it to produce electricity: solar is not very much efficient and needs appropriate weather and large surfaces, wind works only at special places and has some other ecological problems (protected birds deaths) and so on. That’s the reason why now oil burning and nuclear are the firsts choices, generally.

And about the descentralization, right now every person has some possibilities to produce energy (electricity) at home. So, ¿where is the advantage with the hydrogen?.

I admit it could be advantages storing energy, but we should compare efficiencies with other methods used today.

Resuming, I agree with some of the advantages of the hydrogen but I don’t think the complete picture of the hydrogen economy was reasonable.
 
  • #72
The hydrogen economy blasts off
As fuel-cell buses take to the streets in Iceland, the idea of an economy based on hydrogen rather than fossil fuels is being taken more seriously, as Tim Chapman discovers
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/7/10/1


First two myths about renewable energy need to be dispelled
Hydrogen production from coal-bed methane and natural gas is a promising option, for example (the CO2 by-product being used for the enhanced recovery of oil or coal-bed methane on a non-net-carbon-emitting cycle)
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/14/6/2/2



Fuel cells: environmental friend or foe?
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/7/6/10/1



More on fuel cells
Although fuel cells use hydrogen as a fuel, hydrogen could be obtained from fossil fuels by steam reforming or partial oxidation. Of course, the emissions from fuel cells include those from the fuel-manufacturing stage, and therefore depend on the particular fuel and the method used to provide the hydrogen. Fuel-cell power stations could still use fossil fuels, and such stations could be introduced either as part of a central generating system or as small CHP systems dedicated to particular ...
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/11/7/2/1
 
  • #73
Iceland debuts the world's first retail hydrogen station

This tiny North Atlantic country may be the perfect test bed for a national hydrogen-based economy. Its small population—about 279,000—means fewer infrastructure hurdles: The conversion of just 45 gas stations spread along the country's main highway could feasibly service 13,500 hydrogen-fueled vehicles

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,477240,00.html
 
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  • #74
I already mentioned this in the "Nuclear Engineering" Forum, but an article in the last months Popular Science said that the next generation of nuclear power plants will have (in addition to safer containment facilities) the side benefit of producing hydrogen fuel. The leading contender for the next DOE contract is projecting production levels of 10 tons per hour.
 
  • #75


Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Time to escape the grid?
Well...
[from the article] The rub is that such systems can cost up to $60,000 for a typical home...
Not even close to being economically viable. A home with electric heat might use $2,400 / year. 25 year payback. To really be economically viable, the payback neds to be at most half that.

However, I have said before I am in favor of tax incentives to help make it economically viable.
After reading the thread, the only real benefice I find with the hydrogen economy is we can produce hydrogen vehicles (at my city works an experimental bus covering a line) cleanest that the oil ones. It’s a very good thing, because the oil combustion is the first cause of pollution in cities.
Gas might be the leading cause of air pollution in cities, but overall, the leading cause of air pollution in the COUNTRY is coal electric power. Hydrogen cars would shift the pollution to the power plants, causing a net INCREASE in the air pollution output of the country.

A few items for you, Ivan: In that myths about renewable energy thing, is the myth that hydrogen is renewable? If not, it should be - when you derive hydrogen from a non-renewable source like a fossil fuel, then the hydrogen is not renewable. Worse, the part they don't tell you is since you start with oil or natural gas, the final combustion products, no matter how they are produced, are the SAME as if you just burned the oil or natural gas in the first place. Extracting hydrogen to burn clean later just produces all of bad products first.

Iceland is an aberration that really doesn't help us (or anyone else) as an energy infrastructure model. They get most of their power from geothermal sources, so they are not faced with the same issues the rest of the world is.
 
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  • #76
DAMNIT! Someone stole and modified one of my world changing life goals!

My original plan was better anyway, fill your car with water, have a process that separates the water into oxygen and hydrogen(we did this in 8th grade science class, so it can't be that hard to put into a machine), then use both the hydrogen and oxygen for fuel.

Oh well, this clears up some time to work on creating a virus which will somehow incorporate chlorophyll or chloroplast into human skin cells and thus end world hunger through greeness.
 
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  • #77
You Can Eat Lasers

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=halbizon&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50
 
  • #78
why

Why must we transition to H2?

Global warming? No, There isn't any evidence that it is even happening on Earth in the manner in which you mean.

Dependence on Foreign Distributors? Yes, but that is self induced. If the liberals would allow us to drill, then the dependence would naturally decrease.

Desire? No, there isn't any demand if you get seen in a pug fugly car everyday.

Dwindling supplies? NO, there is AN INSANE AMOUNT OF OIL. The only problem is getting to it. For example, in the late 19th century, Oil was thought ONLY TO EXIST ON THE EAST COAST OF THE US! Then some crazy guy went to TEXAS and found oil! The estimate on how long the supply of oil will last is always INCREASING because we can drill deeper and in places never before IMAGINED. 100 years ago, you would have literally been stoned to death if you suggested that we should have these platforms at sea to drill for oil.

Are you still not convinced? The current estimate i think for Fossil fuels is 200 years. In 200 years, I doubt that cars will even exist, but if they do, then we still have Titan, a moon with something close to a natural gas atmosphere and oceans, which would power the human race for centuries. Additionally, if there are more Titan like planets in other systems, well then we don't have a problem.

This H2 BS is simply alarmist propaganda. Why must we spend all this money and time for something that won't last? I say down with h2. Divert all those resources to space.

What is this "placating the oil companies?"
I thought JK said that if there was a secret deal with Saudi Arabia then impeachment proceedings should begin.
Then he said that if there was not a secret deal that GWB should have made one to curb gas prices.
And he seems to disregard that if he had his way that gas would cost even more.

And BTW JK's foreign policy includes compromising US interests at the UN, then subordinating the US foreign policy to the UN. I hate to break it to you, but the UN is historically inept with a few exceptions.
 
  • #79
OK like wasteofo2 said, has anyone seen those web sites that offer a plans on how to build a water spiting system that take water and give you Ox and Hydrogen right at the motor??

Sure you may need two alternators to drive and I think if what I have read about the power out put of a gas engine running on Hydrogen is correct at about 50% of the power, I think a operational gasoline system to boost the hydrogen would be the best of both worlds.

Your dual tanks carries water and gas, (Put them side by side and a crash might just cause the water to wash down the gas and help prevent any fires…could be super safe) and you crack the water at the engine and get almost enough to run the engine, specially at cruse…the gasoline system would be use mainly to start and for the times you need more power and the hydrogen for steady driving…

So what is wrong with these ideas?

Rich
 
  • #80
It takes exactly as much energy to split the water into oxygen and hydrogen as the engine gets back from their combustion, racprops. There is no point to your design.

- Warren
 
  • #81
Are you sure? Granted driving two alternators at full load would add some drag, but a engine make so much power out of gas I would think it would work, and after all distilled water can be bought for about $.75 per gal.

So how much Hydrogen would it take to drive a car down the road and how much power can you get out of Hydrogen?

So how much water would have to be cracked at what rate to give cursing power?

Rich
 
  • #82
racprops said:
Are you sure? Granted driving two alternators at full load would add some drag, but a engine make so much power out of gas I would think it would work, and after all distilled water can be bought for about $.75 per gal.

So how much Hydrogen would it take to drive a car down the road and how much power can you get out of Hydrogen?

So how much water would have to be cracked at what rate to give cursing power?

Rich
I think you missed warren's point: While there is significantly more energy capacity in water than in gasoline, its like an empty battery: you have to put the energy in before you can use it.

You're talking about splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, then using the hydrogen and oxygen to power the car. Where is the energy coming from to split the water? You cannot get it from burning the hydrogen, because the reaction is symmetrical:

H2O+E<->H2+O2

The "E" is the same whether the reaction moves from right to left or left to right.
 
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  • #83
Um, yes, racprops. I'm sure.

- Warren
 
  • #84
OK Then check this out:

http://www.truth777.netfirms.com/Conspiracy/carwater.htm

So what is wrong with this?

Rich
 
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  • #85
I started a new thread at:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=363739#post363739

Calle: Running a Car on Hydorgen Made From Water.

This is my post, just in case some of you still check in on this old thread, which I fear has run out of gas...

Rich

OK I dead serious about this.

Please check this out:

http://www.truth777.netfirms.com/Co...cy/carwater.htm

So what is wrong with this? Is there anything wrong with this plan?

Can or will it work??

If it will not work, can it be fixed? Like what is wrong with it?

I guess the main questions are: (Assuming it really works!)

How much Hydrogen and Oxygen will such a system put out? In volume over time, in other words will it make enough (volume) fast enough (time) to fill the needs of a 350 Chevy motor?

How much would it take to drive a Chevy 350 motor? (Hope some of you know or can find out how much volume of fuel and air a 350 needs.)

Can you match the output to the needs of the 350? Like would it take one or two or more gas generators to feed the 350, and how much current will it take to run those gas generators?

And lastly how much water?? Like what will you think the water/gas mileage will be??

And to figure that out we need to know how much power the mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen this makes will produce in a combustion chamber??

This looks too damm simple and too damm fantastic, and IF it is one of those nutty ideas that everyone dismissed as being all the above, and really works, HOT DAMM what it would mean, a cheap way to power cars, Hydrogen on demand, no 30,0000 pound storage tanks, no refueling stations, and no explosive fuel on board, only water.

And a clean exhaust to boot, I believe it’s by product is air and water?

And yes I know it will make water as a by product and will rust the engine and exhaust system…but if it worked, then special systems like a oiler for the cylinder heads and combustion chambers and stainless steel values and tail pipes will solve most of those problems.

In my case I plan or running a little gasoline with the system and to shut it off and finish the last mile or so home (or to my stop) with pure gasoline to flush the engine.

Could the answer be this simple?

Rich
 
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  • #86
racprops said:
OK Then check this out:

http://www.truth777.netfirms.com/Conspiracy/carwater.htm

So what is wrong with this?
We just told you what was wrong with that!
 
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  • #87
No not really, not just because you say it.


I understand that there is no free lunch.

And I believe you when you say that I cannot suck up the water from the exhaust and use it to run the motor, which I never said.

And I understand to run such a device will mean the alternator will load the motor, but I have seen a alternator load at 60 amps and could hardly feel the drag. (Had a amp gauge and low battery)

A company in Canada is using their converter to help the trucks burn their fuel, as a booster. I personally would not care to bilk a large truck company whom has the deep pockets to sue. I would do what most scammers are doing bilk the general public.

I can see most of the gas mileage add on devices are total bunk and junk, but it is funny how the auto makers have added swirl effects to Chevy heads, (the Torvec Motors) kind of like the Tornado Air intake device.

I found a site where people were adding propane to their intakes.

Not for mileage but to get more Horse Power, at a site for Turbo Buick Drivers where adding propane added to their top end and allow more boost.

I then found a site where I can get a system to add a little propane to my gas full time to boost the burn and power and thus gas mileage.

And with propane costing around $1.00 locally and that the rate is 5 gals of propane to 20 gals of gas looks like a very cost wise system, and it helps clean the motor as well.

I have heard over and over that one reason even old cars get worst mileage that they used to is the type of gas we currently get, and that the Hot Vapors system no longer work because of the changes to the gas, so anything that will help gas burn better I feel is a good idea.

I will have to do a little work and build one of the Hydrogen and Oxygen generators and see for myself. I do not believe it will replace my gas system, but anything that can help the gas system and cut my use of pure Gasoline I feel will be a cost saving.

And so what if it loads the motor at cruse I still think the power boost will out power the drag of the alternator, even at full load. Running a mix of gasoline adn the output of the H&O System. For full power, I will simply set it up to cut out when I go pass ¾ power to allow the gas system to power the motor.

And yes I have read the postings, No one has said that a 350 needs X amount air and fuel, and that a 100 AMP Alternator will draw X amount of House Power and that the H&O generator will produce X amount of H&O and need X amount of current at 12 volts to produce X amount of H&O. All I keep seeing is it will not work, no proof.

No one has said that X amount of H&O will make X amount of power. No one has said that mixing it with gasoline will produce X result. Good or bad.

All seem to have a knee jerk reaction, It Can Not Work.

Gasoline should not work, it is a liquid that burns…. And in fact it has to be vaporized to work. Propane is a gas that burns and so is Hydrogen and Oxygen and even in small amounts should produce added power in a motor.

It is a fact that of all my motors power, only about 20/30% is needed to cruse done the road, which is why they are again trying to shut off 1/2 of a motor with the DOD motors.

So again I would like to see numbers, real numbers.

Sorry I am a bit pig headed, too many things have beed said "Will not work!"
Man can not fly, etc.

Rich
 
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  • #88
H2 is less of a bomb than gas in your tank

It should not be forgotten that H2, whether stored as a pressurized gas or as a cryo liquid, is still inherently safer than gasoline. In case of tank explosion, it will be just as violent as gasoline is. In case of a fire though, you get a nice vertical plume as H2 is lighter than air. In case of gasoline, it just spreads all over your car.
 
  • #89
> And so what if it loads the motor at cruse I still think the power boost will out power the drag
> of the alternator, even at full load.

Well, you think wrong :)

Cheers, Kuba
 
  • #90
Hydrogen electrolyis is not a bad idea. It is not 'free energy', but it gives back a very respectable return on investment [around 50%, math available on request]. There is, however, the option of harnessing solar energy to power the input [which is as near a thing to free energy as is available]. While direct use of solar energy would be more efficient, it is not the kind of 'power on demand' required to meet human demands. I do object to playing down the dangers of hydrogen compared to fossil fuels. It would need to be stored in compressed form to be practical. A compressed gas cylinder is NOT safer in a fire than an uncompressed tank full of gasoline.
 
  • #91
...Hydrogen is no more or less dangerous than other flammable fuels, including gasoline and natural gas. In fact, some of hydrogen’s differences actually provide safety benefits compared to gasoline or other fuels. However, all flammable fuels must be handled responsibly...

Worth the quick, two page read.

Facts about Hydrogen Safety [pdf]
 
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  • #92

No one has said that X amount of H&O will make X amount of power. No one has said that mixing it with gasoline will produce X result. Good or bad.

Sure, because this data is readily available in tables and the actual numerical values are of no importance here. It doesn't matter whether you would split water, or carbon mono/dioxide, or any other oxide for that matter, from point of view of energetics of reaction you'd always put at least the same amount of energy to split it that you would obtain by burning it.

Cheers, Kuba
 
  • #93
I wonder if there will be Hybrid engines that contain Hydrogen burning systems along with a Sterling engine which works off of heat.


Dymium
 
  • #94
Ivan Seeking……. Thank you ….. this is a subject I have nurtured and spread all over the world. I have yet to read all of the pages herein on this thread but I can offer many paths in any wish to pursue on this subject.

This administration has other agendas and most of the dollars spent are governed to maintain a firm grip on any in depth release on just how simple hydrogen is to use. In the automotive arena if mechanics knew just how easy it is to convert our existing internal combustion engines a monster would evolve.

The effects of large amounts of hydrogen into the atmosphere is what sparked the writing of the Dynamo Theory which I authored in August of this year coupling Tesla’s theories on the earth’s magnetic field. I summarized that our sun had given us the massive amounts of hydrogen that created our oceans in the first place and that we would suffer no damage by combining these naturally diatomic elements and create motion from the energy.

Where I intend to go next is to use the sun and the Earth telluric currents to release hydrogen from water. The path of using nuclear power to also offer this fueling source is definite but also a governing path that will underwrite the corporate entities that have known how simple hydrogen is to use for years.

The question is who is able to make the proper information public?
 
  • #95
For those of you who want to look into alternative's to oil, coal, nuclear, etc.., try visiting the PES network IE: http://www.pureenergysystems.com/. There are several hydrogen projects which could use your support in whatever way you are able. I like Dr. Kaku's statement about no barriers or obsticles. If there were more mature physicists like Michio Kaku, Niels Bohr, and guy's like Burt Rutan to deal with in the world, I believe we would already have our alternative energy system in place. I know that the political aspects of the whole problem is frowned upon by most forums, both physics and alternative science, but this only contributes to the suspicions that it is the main problem with trying to bring new technologies of the sort to the market-place. I have been in the field all of my life and have also worked within the level 5 above top secret projects in the U.S., and so I have had a birds eye view of things which most of the spokespersons in the field of physics have no clue about. I am not bringing this up to boast, but simply to point out that without complete access to this level of knowledge and information, most of the so-called experts in these area's have no idea just how far advanced technologies actually are. I don't even know if this post will go through due to the very nature of its contents, but whenever someone says that a technology is perhaps 25 to 50 years away from the present date, you can usually be assurred that it is probably more like 25 to 50 from the past. I don't know how such seemingly intelligent people can remain so clueless for so long, but I guess that's what they were taught from the beginning and its all they know. This may anger some who think they know it all, but there is much more to our problems of getting alternative energy technologies to the market than overcoming the limits of ones education. Tesla knew this and tried to give us answers a century ago. But since the vast majority of the public believes everything the FCC controlled media tells them to believe, I don't see much changing for the time being. Oh well, I'm probably just continuing to bang my head against a brick wall here anyway, but just thought I'd try to point out some things.

Cheers,

Bush Wacker
 
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