A technical question about the Joule-Thomson Experiment

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Joule-Thomson Experiment, specifically focusing on the derivation and manipulation of equations related to the experiment as presented in Kubo's textbook. Participants are examining the relationships between temperature, pressure, and volume in the context of the equation of state.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an equation from Kubo's textbook and attempts to derive a second equation from it, expressing confusion over the steps taken.
  • Another participant agrees with the correctness of the first participant's steps and suggests proving a specific relationship involving the variable B.
  • Several participants challenge the validity of the equation pV=RT(1+Bp), proposing a more general form that includes additional terms.
  • One participant questions how to derive a specific identity from the general equation, indicating a lack of clarity in the derivation process.
  • A later reply confirms the result of one of the earlier claims, but does not resolve the overall confusion regarding the derivations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the validity of the equation pV=RT(1+Bp), with some proposing a more complex general equation. The discussion remains unresolved as participants continue to seek clarity on the derivations and relationships presented.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made in the derivations, particularly concerning the treatment of the terms in the equations and the conditions under which they hold true.

MathematicalPhysicist
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It's written in Kubo's textbook:

we obtain
$$(1) \ \ \ \ \ \bigg( \frac{\partial T}{\partial p} \bigg)_H = \bigg[ T (\frac{\partial V}{\partial T})_p - V \bigg] / C_p$$

When the equation of state ##pV = RT(1+Bp)##, eq (1) becomes

$$ (2) \ \ \ \ (\partial T / \partial p)_H = (TdB/dT-B)/C_p$$

I tried getting (2) from (1), but I get something different, I get:
##T\partial V / \partial T - V = TR/p+TRB+RT^2dB/dT-RT/p-RTB = RT^2dB/dT##, how to resolve this conundrum?

Thanks.
 
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Hi,

Your steps are correct.

It seems that you must prove ##RT=1-\frac {B} {T\frac{dB} {dT}}##.
 
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Seems so.
 
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MathematicalPhysicist said:
Seems so.

The equation pV=RT(1+Bp) is false.

The general equation is ##pV=RT+B(T)p+C(T)p^2+D(T)p^3+.##.
If you consider C,D,...=0, then you can end up to the following equation:
## \left( \frac {\partial T} {\partial p} \right)_H=\frac {\left( T\left( \frac {\partial V} {\partial T} \right)_p-V \right)} {C_p}=\frac {\left( T \frac {\partial \left(\frac {RT+Bp} {p} \right)_p} {\partial T}-\frac {RT+Bp} {p} \right)} {C_p} \Rightarrow##
##\left( \frac {\partial T} {\partial p} \right)_H = \frac { \left( \frac {RT} {p} +T \frac {dB} {dT} - \frac {RT}{p} - B\right)} {C_p}=\frac {T \frac {dB} {dT}-B} {C_p}##
 
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DoItForYourself said:
The equation pV=RT(1+Bp) is false.

The general equation is ##pV=RT+B(T)p+C(T)p^2+D(T)p^3+.##.
If you consider C,D,...=0, then you can end up to the following equation:
$$ \left( \frac {\partial T} {\partial p} \right)_H=\frac {T\frac {dB} {dT}-B} {C_p}$$
How do you get the last identity from ##pV = RT+B(T)p##?, I don't see it.
 
MathematicalPhysicist said:
How do you get the last identity from ##pV = RT+B(T)p##?, I don't see it.

I edited the post, so you can see the detailed process that I followed to reach the final result.
 
MathematicalPhysicist said:
It's written in Kubo's textbook:
I tried getting (2) from (1), but I get something different, I get:
##T\partial V / \partial T - V = TR/p+TRB+RT^2dB/dT-RT/p-RTB = RT^2dB/dT##, how to resolve this conundrum?

Thanks.
I confirm your result.
 

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