Abstract question I fail to solve

[zoki85]

Hi!

I couldn't find good enough logic here.
What's the correct answer (A,B,C,D, or E), what I am missing?

Zoki

 

[phinds]

Do you see any correlation between each perimeter and what is inside that perimeter?

 

[zoki85]

No, nothing specific. Seems random to me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zoki, this has the superficial appearance of a Raven's Progressive matrix, but may not be. The group as a whole may just be a set. And the solution might simply be to select the choice that best belongs in the set. Choice A wouldn't belong in the set because the two figures that are in A have rounded corners, and all the figures in the 'set proper' have sharp corners. By the same logic, all the other choices have features that make them too different from the members of the set proper to belong there, except one, E. E seems to have all the right properties.

I don't know if that's the right answer but it is the only sense I could make of this. Do you have an answer key?

 

[jz92wjaz]

I was also thinking E. If you look at the diagonals, you have a set of three where the number of sides of the inside shape matches the number of sides of the outside shape. The other visible set of three has two where the number of sides on the outside and inside shape differs by one, and one where the outside has two more than the inside. On the last diagonal, you see one where the number of sides differs by one, and one where the number of sides differs by three. I would infer that the last ought to differ by one, so I pick E.

Or, each diagonal has two odd shaped pieces. The diagonal starting from the top left to the bottom right has both in the top left image. The other full diagonal has the odd pieces in the middle left and lower middle. The last diagonal has odd pieces in the bottom left and middle right. The ? piece should have no odd pieces. A, B, and C are all odd. D has no middle. I choose E again.

Honestly, I have no idea which is correct, but this seems plausible. If you find the correct answer, please tell us.

 

[zoki85]

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?
@jz92wjaz, I think you're complicating bit too much. This is the question one should answer in about 1 min, so the pattern involved must be rather simple.

 

[TumblingDice]

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?
@jz92wjaz, I think you're complicating bit too much. This is the question one should answer in about 1 min, so the pattern involved must be rather simple.

I have to agree with post #4 from @zoobyshoe, as well as the perspective from @wjaz. I can easily eliminate A, B and D because they have properties that conflict with all other members of the set/puzzle. (A) has rounded corners, (B) has two identical geometric figures, and (D) does not have an inner shape. Looking from this distance, I haven't found a way to eliminate (C) from the big picture yet, but there's also a little "spidey sense" in my head that's saying I should notice a problem with (C).

If this were a question on a test of mine, I could go home feeling very confident with (E).

Anyone else?

 

[Evo]

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?

B and C both have their "main" axis on the diagonal. In saying that, I'm kind of waving my hand at a property I don't have rigorous words for. But the other figures all seem "rooted" in either a vertical or horizontal axis, not a diagonal one. B is outright skewed or racked. There's no other figure with that property. We could put four different axes through C, but the "main" ones on which it is constructed are the diagonal ones. Additionally, if we were to chose C we'd have to explain why it's outer polygon has so many more sides than any other figure. Of all the choices E seems completely non-controversial. There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Regardless, that whole approach might be outright wrong. There may be a much more interesting, but obscure, pattern I haven't grasped.

 

[TumblingDice]

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

If Evo's observation isn't correct, it's the fault of the puzzle, AFAIC.

WAY TO GO, EVO!
Check it out! The bold/normal weights that Evo explains are unique and consistent with, "what's missing?". I'm all in with Evo - the geometries, shapes, and curves are all blowing smoke here. (I'm experiencing some significant "deja vu" at the moment, and don't understand why).

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think I like Evo's answer the best. As far as zoobyshoe's "main axis" argument, I would cast this as every shape (indeed, every outer shape) has at least one horizontal line. C does not. I don't think B can be excluded on symmetry axis grounds because of (1,1) where the inner shape also has a canted symmetry axis.

I also think this is a lousy question. One can argue for several answers.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Except that no row or column has two outer shapes with the same number of sides. (2,2) and E both have 4.

 

[Vanadium 50]

(B) has two identical geometric figures

So does (1,3).

 

[zoki85]

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

I admit that's a nice way of creative thinking :)
However, that sort question just probes the logic and reasoning power of testee.
In that sense here's better way to eliminate B. Note that in all 5 figures with bold and thin figure in the picture, the figures have different number of sides.Only cases with both thin sides figures have equal number of sides. B has two figures with equal number of sides but they are not both thin.

B and C both have their "main" axis on the diagonal. In saying that, I'm kind of waving my hand at a property I don't have rigorous words for. But the other figures all seem "rooted" in either a vertical or horizontal axis, not a diagonal one. B is outright skewed or racked. There's no other figure with that property. We could put four different axes through C, but the "main" ones on which it is constructed are the diagonal ones. Additionally, if we were to chose C we'd have to explain why it's outer polygon has so many more sides than any other figure. Of all the choices E seems completely non-controversial. There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Regardless, that whole approach might be outright wrong. There may be a much more interesting, but obscure, pattern I haven't grasped.

I don't think there's anything with diagonals or orientation of the figures involved. But that's just my opinion

 

[zoobyshoe]

I also think this is a lousy question. One can argue for several answers.

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

 

[zoki85]

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

FYI, the question is example from one of Procter & Gamble's global reasoning tests :
https://www.wikijob.co.uk/wiki/procter-gamble-application-process

 

[zoobyshoe]

FYI, the question is example from one of Procter & Gamble's global reasoning tests :
https://www.wikijob.co.uk/wiki/procter-gamble-application-process

I googled a little trying to find the test. I found this one, but the problems are way easier, with very clear answers:
https://pg.sitebase.net/pg_images/t...nglish_-_Practice_Reasoning_Test_-_5.6.08.pdf

 

[zoki85]

I googled a little trying to find the test. I found this one, but the problems are way easier, with very clear answers:
https://pg.sitebase.net/pg_images/t...nglish_-_Practice_Reasoning_Test_-_5.6.08.pdf

Yes, these are easy. You may consider them just for warm up:D. Such kind of questions you'll get among first on real P&G tests.
The question I posted, you'll get near the end of the test;)

 

[TumblingDice]

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

Me, too. I started thinking this shortly after posting my enthusiasm regarding the line weights. Just as you wrote, multiple paths lead to "E", and the problem there is it doesn't weed out a good answer from the illusive, correct answer.

Has anyone been able to spot possible reasons to eliminate "C"? I haven't seriously revisited this since last time - will check back and "chew" some more hopefully soon.

 

[zoki85]

Has anyone been able to spot possible reasons to eliminate "C"?

Read Evo's post. Column rule of inverted sides thickness for two elements of the same column. This is why answer E has advantage over answer C.
And maybe not the only reason...

 

[TumblingDice]

Read Evo's post. Column rule of inverted sides thickness for two elements of the same column. This is why answer E has advantage over answer C.
And maybe not the only reason...

Yes, yet this solution is confined to columns, w/o any observable hint on the puzzle why the solution would be confined to columns. I went back to the puzzle to view rows and diagonals with a fresh perspective (compliments of Evo), but no luck. I've even tried thinking of the middle square as a 'wild card' - yeah, that hasn't worked yet...

I want to believe the answer will be clear and amazingly obvious once it's identified, and the creator spent a lot of time to strategically disguise it to find whose brain thinks that way, very quickly.

 

[TumblingDice]

Another road that leads to "E"? Looking at a set of 3x3 nine, I began looking for groups of three. I spot three figures with inside/outside normal weight. Three more with inside bold and outside normal. That leaves two with inside normal and outside bold - and "E" is the only one that will make the final triplet. Unless the inside parellogram in "B"is normal - maybe not?

This is a GOOD puzzle (as long as the answer isn't "E").

 

[zoki85]

@TumblingDice, Let me rephrase it in the following way :
We have 3 items with bolded greater number of sides on the inner figure, and 2 items with bolded greater number of sides on the outer figure. So what answer do you prefer for the pic of the puzzle to be completed: C or E?

 

[TumblingDice]

@TumblingDice, Let me rephrase it in the following way :
We have 3 items with bolded greater number of sides on the inner figure, and 2 items with bolded greater number of sides on the outer figure. So what answer do you prefer for pic to be completed: C or E?

Plz read my post #21. (C would be my pick if i fits for a specific, unique reason.)

 

[mfb]

I would choose "E" for two independent reasons, and I got both independent of the discussion here:

1) by elimination: A with rounded edges and D without inner shape clearly don't fit in the pattern. C has 12 sides for the outer shape, that is too much. B does not follow the symmetry pattern (horizontal or vertical symmetry axis, apart from the inner shape at A).
2) by line width: Same argument as Evo posted. It is not so clear if the inner shape at "B" is thick or not, but I prefer E here.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yes, these are easy. You may consider them just for warm up:D. Such kind of questions you'll get among first on real P&G tests.
The question I posted, you'll get near the end of the test;)

Can you link us to the actual page where you found this, please?

 

[zoobyshoe]

2) by line width: Same argument as Evo posted. It is not so clear if the inner shape at "B" is thick or not, but I prefer E here.

Evo's line width logic is very compelling and eliminates C. It's not so clear after that, though, that B is the wrong choice. The inner figure does seem "too large," but I'm hard pressed to formulate a rule about how large the inner figure should be. All I can say is that, in the case of B, it seems to have a different aesthetic to its proportions than the others. In other words, it's an intuitive reaction, not something you can rigorously justify.

Figure 1,1 is pretty much wrong for the set because, unlike all the others, it has no axis that will cut both inner and outer figure with bilateral symmetry. If that's allowed (and it is) then maybe a "too large" inner figure is equally allowed, and maybe a diagonal axis is allowed. 1,1 makes it hard to figure out laws or axioms for this puzzle.

 

[zoki85]

Can you link us to the actual page where you found this, please?

Unfortunately, I can't. Friend who has taken P&G test, forwarded me the question. BTW, he passed the test:)

 

[Intrastellar]

The shape of any pair with more sides is bold, a pair with equal number of sides are both not bold. E is the only correct answer.

Edit:
I am not sure whether this post was clear. Pick any box, the object with more sides is the bold one, and if both objects have equal number of sides, then they are both not bold. according to these 2 rules, E is the only correct answer

Edit2:
I just read the thread

Another road that leads to "E"? Looking at a set of 3x3 nine, I began looking for groups of three. I spot three figures with inside/outside normal weight. Three more with inside bold and outside normal. That leaves two with inside normal and outside bold - and "E" is the only one that will make the final triplet. Unless the inside parellogram in "B"is normal - maybe not?

This is a GOOD puzzle (as long as the answer isn't "E").

And this finishes the puzzle, each column has one with one with bold outside figure, one inside, and one with both not bold, the only correct answer is E

Edit3: I meant, this finishes the puzzle by giving it (Edit4: it being the above solution) the row or column specific pattern.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The shape of any pair with more sides is bold, a pair with equal number of sides are both not bold. E is the only correct answer.

Edit:
I am not sure whether this post was clear. Pick any box, the object with more sides is the bold one, and if both objects have equal number of sides, then they are both not bold. according to these 2 rules, E is the only correct answer

Edit2:
I just read the thread

And this finishes the puzzle, each column has one with one with bold outside figure, one inside, and one with both not bold, the only correct answer is E

Edit3: I meant, this finishes the puzzle by giving it the row or column specific pattern.

I definitely see B as inside: normal, outside: bold. In that regard, it's as good a choice as E. If E is correct, there has to be some other reason for rejecting B, because they're both inside: normal, outside: bold.

 

[zoki85]

I definitely see B as inside: normal, outside: bold. In that regard, it's as good a choice as E. If E is correct, there has to be some other reason for rejecting B, because they're both inside: normal, outside: bold.

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

 

[Intrastellar]

I definitely see B as inside: normal, outside: bold. In that regard, it's as good a choice as E. If E is correct, there has to be some other reason for rejecting B, because they're both inside: normal, outside: bold.

Ahh, I knew I wasn't clear, my apologies.

For each one of the 3x3 boxes, the figure with the more sides is the bold ones, but if they both have the same number of sides they are both not bold.
For each column, there is one with a bold figure on the outside, one with a bold figure on the inside, and one with both not bold.

I hope that this is clearer.

 

[TumblingDice]

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

O.K. for you if you feel that confident. My comment is, if "E" is the correct answer and the quiz doesn't allow for one to explain their reasoning, then the question is very poor. That's because most replies with an answer in this thread say "E", yet there's a variety of reasons given why. If most people choose "E" for various reasons, I don't see what the testers could expect to glean from the testee's answers (guesses).

 

[zoobyshoe]

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

Ahh, I knew I wasn't clear, my apologies.

For each one of the 3x3 boxes, the figure with the more sides is the bold ones, but if they both have the same number of sides they are both not bold.
For each column, there is one with a bold figure on the outside, one with a bold figure on the inside, and one with both not bold.

I hope that this is clearer.

I see now. B is rejected based on the fact it has the same # of sides in both inner and outer figure. Other figures like that are not bolded.

However, observe 1,1. The inner figure shares no axis with the outer figure. 1,1 is unique and anomalous for that. Given 1,1, how do we ever know what other anomalies aren't allowed?

That doubt aside, your reason for rejecting B is pretty good. The existence of 1,1 prevents me, however, from saying, "case closed."

 

[zoki85]

Well then, maybe you two should write P&G company they have some bad questions in their professionally made reasoning tests :p
I don't know what else to say...

 

[Resistor]

FYI, the question is example from one of Procter & Gamble's global reasoning tests :
https://www.wikijob.co.uk/wiki/procter-gamble-application-process

 

[Resistor]

There are nine abstracts within the squares. These can be divided into three groups of three. Six can clearly be seen. ( two groups of three; and can be eliminated. the first group of three being being the most obvious are the lowest abstract in the first row together with the middle and lowest abstract in the second row ( reading left to right). the second group of three are now easy to see and therefore, once you see the second group, the answer must be D.

 

[Intrastellar]

However, observe 1,1. The inner figure shares no axis with the outer figure.

Sorry, I don't understand what that means, you mean that they don't point the same way ?

 

[Resistor]

The first group referred to relate to the loaf of bread / crown shape getting larger, the first row lowest being the smallest then the second row middle is the next largest with the lowest middle row being the largest. Note that the cominality of their particular shape is that all of the shapes have the same orientation; even though two are inside the outer lines and one is outside. This is just to confuse the issue. the clue for the next three is nothing to do with the shapes and will be easy to find.

 

[TumblingDice]

Well then, maybe you two should write P&G company they have some bad questions in their professionally made reasoning tests :p
I don't know what else to say...

Was the answer published, or is "E" what you think is correct?

Frankly, I could care less about the viabilty of P&G's interview process.

 

[Medicol]

I think it is C, shapes should be all different. I have tried using papers of the same shapes then fold and cut its extra pieces of the outer shape while overlapping it with that of the second and use both of the inners to expand it until it reach the third shape's outer layer.

Sighing... people of prestigious colleges or large companies seem to always think big and say big words and their problems are just hard to solve. This is a good problem because I can pick any of the choices if I am the test taker.

 

[zoki85]

This is a good problem because I can pick any of the choices if I am the test taker.

You can pick any of the choices, yes. But only one choice will be scored as the correct one. You'll not get a chance to explain why do you think two or more choices can be correct. If you mark more than one choice in your answer sheet, you automatically get 0 points for the question. That's how this works. I know, It's cruel world and such testing kills creativity. Somebody will score 99 points and somebody else 149 points.

 

[TumblingDice]

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

Still waiting to hear: Your post indicates "must be". Was the answer published as "E", or are you stating "I'm satisfied that E must be correct"?

 

[zoobyshoe]

There are nine abstracts within the squares. These can be divided into three groups of three. Six can clearly be seen. ( two groups of three; and can be eliminated. the first group of three being being the most obvious are the lowest abstract in the first row together with the middle and lowest abstract in the second row ( reading left to right). the second group of three are now easy to see and therefore, once you see the second group, the answer must be D.

Define "abstract," please, and it will help me know exactly what figures you're referring to if you designate each one you refer to with two numbers: row number, then column number.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Sorry, I don't understand what that means, you mean that they don't point the same way ?

All of the figures except 1,1 can be bisected on some axis so that both the inner and outer figure have bilateral symmetry about that axis. Some can be bisected on many axes and have that symmetry, but some on only one axis. Figure 1,1 can't be bisected on any axis where both inner and outer figure have bilateral symmetry on that axis.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well then, maybe you two should write P&G company they have some bad questions in their professionally made reasoning tests :p
I don't know what else to say...

I don't know if it's a "bad" question. It might, for example, be a very well designed question to test applicants for OCD tendencies. How long do you spend on it looking for a 'perfect' solution before you just move on and guess with your gut?

It's very common in studies to pretend you're testing for one thing (say, intelligence) when you're actually testing for another (say, OCD tendencies). A job application might use the same sort of misdirection.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Is the question "pick the best answer"? If so, I think that's an argument for E. How many shapes have the same inner and outer figures? One of 8. How many have more than 8 sides? None? How many have quadrilaterals (in or out)? Four. Triangles? Two.

Instead of arguing E is the only choice, instead argue that it is "most like" the other 8.

 

[TumblingDice]

I don't know if it's a "bad" question. It might, for example, be a very well designed question to test applicants for OCD tendencies. How long do you spend on it looking for a 'perfect' solution before you just move on and guess with your gut?

It's very common in studies to pretend you're testing for one thing (say, intelligence) when you're actually testing for another (say, OCD tendencies). A job application might use the same sort of misdirection.

@zoobyshoe - Liking your post and the fresh perspective! There've been a few moments when I thought of 'considering the source' or better, considering the target audience. All of my experience with these types of interview testing have been in computing/programming. If the test was targeted for information technology applicants, I would expect questions to have wrong answers, average answers, and exceptional answers. That's just me - I like to measure as much as possible.

Now then, Proctor and Gamble... If the test was focused on abstract programming insight, my comments above apply. But if the test is instead, perhaps, designed for employees watching conveyor belts or vats of mixtures for quality control, this could be a great question to identify potential employees that can make a decision and are willing to go with their gut response. (Shutting down an assembly line is something you only want to do when it's absolutely, positively required.)

Sorry for the long post. I haven't given up on finding an exact solution, and I think it was cool that zoobyshoe responded with this perspective!

 

[zoki85]

Still waiting to hear: Your post indicates "must be". Was the answer published as "E", or are you stating "I'm satisfied that E must be correct"?

Nothing was published, and I can't prove my claim, but I'm very sure E is the correct answer . When I saw the pattern and that choice E fits so nicely, I didn't even have to think about ways how to eliminate other choices. In my mind, in a fraction of second, I experienced "A-ha, that's it!-moment". You should ask psychologists and other experts how they explain that phenomenon .

It might, for example, be a very well designed question to test applicants for OCD tendencies. How long do you spend on it looking for a 'perfect' solution before you just move on and guess with your gut?

The question belongs to the part of test which probes applicants' cognitive skills, power of reasoning and pattern recognition. Undoubtedly, tested is form of intelligence. Given time to think isn't long (less than 2 min per question on average). You either quickly see or don't see what is going on. If you don't see it, you're allowed to guess with gut feeling and move on.

 

[Resistor]

I have not seen a previously published answer. E is what I think is correct by utilising logical elimination. If you look hard enough you will also be able to see multiples of odd and even numbers 3-5-7 and 4-6-8 after eliminating the three already described. This puzzle has been presumably put up on this site by you because you were unable to solve it. These types of puzzles can be analysed in many ways. I believe that it would be a good test for the chimpanzee that beats any human in cognitive tests, he could probably get it right in .3 of a second!