Aliens/Intelligant Life forms, do they exist?

[Viper]

Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?
I can`t believe that with all the Trillions of planets there are there is not one planet with remotely the same conditions or atmosphere of earth?

 

[Phobos]

Some would say that, with an infinite universe, you're mathematically guaranteed to have another planet like this one.

 

[Viper]

I agree

 

[Alexander]

Dig what? In visible universe only we have at least 10²¹ stars (and many more moons). Can you imagine that they ALL are lifeless? I can't.

So, there is tons of various lives out there and billions if not trillions of civilized forms. But because they are quite far from each other, chances to communicate (not to say travel) are very slim.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Viper - I simple concept. A beautiful concept. Good post man. Let me give you my thoughts on all facets, as alien life to me is a very beautiful thing.

Statistically, as Alex said, it's incredibally likely. In fact, it's so likely, even I (an anal-retentive logicopath some of you might say) would say it MUST true.

Will "they" ever contact "us"? Well, I wonder what a statistician would say about this. What's the likelihood (which would require a lot of known variables) that "they" would contact "us" in the next 1000 years? 500 years? 10,000 years?

It's the egocentricity of human nature that makes people absolutely believe that an event that they have emotional investment in MUST happen in their life time.

Every generation thinks jesus is coming back "in their lifetime". Every generation thinks an atom bomb will go off "in their lifetime" Every generation thinks _____ is the new antichrist. And every generation (for the most part) thinks aliens will come "in their lifetime".

Recently I've watched man in depth shows on special science channels I get about OUR SOLAR SYSTEM.

Perhaps, an even better question is to ask:

Given the evidence that MARS may have water in it, and given the fact that EUROPA (A moon if jupiter) does indeed have an ocean underneath a layer of ice, the ocean and ice of which spread across the entire sphere of the planet - is their multi-cellular life in OUR SOLAR SYSTEM, or HAS THEIR BEEN such life.

To me, I'd say there must have been single cellular life in our solar system. But that's certianly open for debate.

Getting to multi-cellular ogranisms is a bit more difficult, shoot it can take a few billion years sometimes!

Also, What do we think about life coming to Earth via an intercepting object? Anything from a meteor to some long past alien group landing here for a vacation on an intersolar cruise?

I enjoy talking about space because even with the evidence we have on certain things, it's open to happy debate, and it's all good.!

 

[J-Man]

2 cents

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
...and given the fact that EUROPA (A moon if jupiter) does indeed have an ocean underneath a layer of ice, the ocean and ice of which spread across the entire sphere of the planet...

That is not a fact. It is a possibility.
The facts are: Europa's surface is mostly covered with frozen water. There is a non-water core in Europa. There are sources of energy that could melt some of the ice. We do not know how thick the water-ice is nor if any is melted underneath.

Keep the change.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

J-Man, you're incorrect.

Wave beams have determined that Europa, from the outside towards the center consists of

1. Ice surface

2. Ocean in middle

3. Solid core

This is new news, that the waves have determined this, so you might not yet be aware.

But it has been proven

 

[Psyber freek]

Still, life as we know it is pretty hard to make. First, you need the right conditions to make the right amino acids, which in turn need to form the right proteins, which need to go in the correct sequence to form DNA to make cells. And the chances that all this could happen are very small.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by Psyber freek
Still, life as we know it is pretty hard to make. First, you need the right conditions to make the right amino acids, which in turn need to form the right proteins, which need to go in the correct sequence to form DNA to make cells. And the chances that all this could happen are very small.

There are no "right" amino acids.
There are no "right" proteins.
There is no "correct" DNA sequence to make cells.

Furthermore, "life as we know it" doesn't require these things at all. Most yes, but not all.

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by Psyber freek
Still, life as we know it is pretty hard to make.

Hard to conclude that since we just have one example of a success. We don't have any good success-vs-failure data to run any statistics. We don't even know if our closest neighbors (Mars, Venus) have had life or not. And we've only just cleared 100 in the number of discovered planets in the universe (of course, there are more...we just have not found them yet).

 

[drag]

Greetings !

For anyone interested in crazy ideas I
once imagined that Europan complex
life forms could exist. They would
enitialy form as organic molecules
would stick relativly close together
along the magnetic field lines of Jupiter
and draw energy from the interactions
of the field and the ocean. You would
get very long magneticly oriented snakes.
Another more "conventional" possibility
is life close to the bottom of the ocean
near the hot and gravitationaly excited
core of the moon where the resulting
geothermal energy could possibly nurture a
limmited eco-system capable of supporting small
and yet complex marine life forms.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Alex]

"The surest sign of alien life outside of our planet, is that none of it has ever tried to contact us" - Bill Watterson

 

[LURCH]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
J-Man, you're incorrect.

Wave beams have determined that Europa, from the outside towards the center consists of

1. Ice surface

2. Ocean in middle

3. Solid core

This is new news, that the waves have determined this, so you might not yet be aware.

But it has been proven

When did you hear this and where? Do you have a link? I've been waiting for this quetion to be put to rest, and would love to read about the final proof.

This article was published at Space.com just five days ago (May 15th), and the question was still open.

 

[J-Man]

I concede the possibility that I don't have the latest information, but I too would like to know where this "new news" came from. Who did it? What instruments produced these "wave beams"? How conclusive is the data? (Many properties of liquid-water and ice-water are similar.) When did it happen?

Please prove me wrong, I'd love to know, but I can't just take your word for it. (I'm from Missouri, you got to show me.)

 

[Psyber freek]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
There are no "right" amino acids.

Wrong. There two forms of amino acids, left handed and right handed. Only left handed amino acids are found in life. When scientists make amino acids, only half are left handed.

There are no "right" proteins.
There is no "correct" DNA sequence to make cells.

yes there are. DNA is incredibly complex. You can't just through proteins together to make it. There is a correct sequence. How do you think genetic defects happen?

Furthermore, "life as we know it" doesn't require these things at all. Most yes, but not all.

Actually, life does require amino acids, proteins, and DNA. ALL living things have them, even viruses.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Psyber freek Actually, life does require amino acids, proteins, and DNA. ALL living things have them, even viruses. [/B]

All living things that we know of anyway. You can't assume that alien life looks ANYTHING like "life as we know it."

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist:
There are no "right" amino acids.

Originally posted by Psyber freek:
Wrong. There two forms of amino acids, left handed and right handed. Only left handed amino acids are found in life. When scientists make amino acids, only half are left handed.

No offense man, but being that I am fully educated in biology, medicine, and neuroscience, I'm not a good person to question the basis of biology with. Furthermore you missed my point completely. My point goes beyond Biology. There are two forms of amino acids out of the now 22 (or 23) discovered. Any amino acid could be inside life, not just the ones here on Earth. It's a fundamental question, you're looking to narrow. We're talking about ALIENS HERE NOT EARTHLINGS!

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist:
There are no "right" proteins
There is no "correct" DNA sequence to make cells.

Originally posted by Psyber freek:
yes there are. DNA is incredibly complex. You can't just through proteins together to make it. There is a correct sequence. How do you think genetic defects happen?

See above. We're talking about aliens, and you're being Earth narrow here! Life doesn't need DNA at all. And there are no correct anything for life. Way to narrow!

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
Originally posted by LogicalAtheist:
There are no "right" amino acids.

Originally posted by Psyber freek:
Wrong. There two forms of amino acids, left handed and right handed. Only left handed amino acids are found in life. When scientists make amino acids, only half are left handed.

No offense man, but being that I am fully educated in biology, medicine, and neuroscience, I'm not a good person to question the basis of biology with. Furthermore you missed my point completely. My point goes beyond Biology. There are two forms of amino acids out of the now 22 (or 23) discovered. Any amino acid could be inside life, not just the ones here on Earth. It's a fundamental question, you're looking to narrow. We're talking about ALIENS HERE NOT EARTHLINGS!

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist:
There are no "right" proteins
There is no "correct" DNA sequence to make cells.

Originally posted by Psyber freek:
yes there are. DNA is incredibly complex. You can't just through proteins together to make it. There is a correct sequence. How do you think genetic defects happen?

See above. We're talking about aliens, and you're being Earth narrow here! Life doesn't need DNA at all. And there are no correct anything for life. Way to narrow!

For starters, sir, you did say that life as we know it doesn't depend on protein, amino acids, or DNA. (paraphrasing). So when you make a statement like that we're going to question your biology, whether or not you're "fully educated in biology, medicine, and neuroscience.)

Secondly, if you are indeed fully educated in biology, medicine, and neuroscience than you can appreciate how complex biochemical machinery is and that it would require quite specific conditions to evolve. You seem quite sure that life doesn't need nucleic acid, but can you come up with a plausible explanation of how life could evolve without similar chemistry?

 

[FZ+]

You seem quite sure that life doesn't need nucleic acid, but can you come up with a plausible explanation of how life could evolve without similar chemistry?

Can you make a plausible explanation ruling out the existence of life-like things without similar chemistry? Because you must show that there is absolutely no possibility of an alternative life system, not challenge show that there is such a possibility, which is the default option.

 

[Mulder]

Originally posted by russ_watters
All living things that we know of anyway. You can't assume that alien life looks ANYTHING like "life as we know it."

Exactly. This is what many people don't think about.

 

[drag]

Silicon beasts...

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by Alex
"The surest sign of alien life outside of our planet, is that none of it has ever tried to contact us" - Bill Watterson

Oh please... and we tried to contact every alien in this universe isn't it?

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by drag
Silicon beasts...

We have those on Earth now. Oh wait, you said "beasts". Never mind.

Guybrush Threepwood - 'Twas just a joke by a cartoonist, not a mathematical/scientific statement of proof.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Phobos
We have those on Earth now. Oh wait, you said "beasts". Never mind.

LOL! Very funny Phobos.

Anyway, a couple of points on this topic:

1) Carbon life may not be the only kind of life. Thus amino acids may be entirely unnecesarry to extraterrestrial lifeforms.

2) While it is very likely that there are other lifeforms on other planets (inevitable if the Universe is infinite in size), it is not necessarily intelligent life.

3) The question that Viper asked was, will they ever try to contact us. IMO, it'd be like us finding an ant-hill and stooping down to their level, to teach them the concepts of string theory and space travel (actually, I borrowed this from Michio Kaku). Basically, we are not even yet a Type 1 civilization yet, and so intelligent aliens (capable of interstellar travel) would probably have no interest in us at all.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Mentat
LOL! Very funny Phobos.

Hey ! I'm the one who wrote the joke !

Anyway, your second point is also funny Mentat...

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by drag
Hey ! I'm the one who wrote the joke !

Bwahaha! Stolen another one!

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by drag
Hey ! I'm the one who wrote the joke !

True. Alright, you officially have credit for making me crack up .

Anyway, your second point is also funny Mentat...

Why do I sense a wuliheronish debate on infinity coming up here?

 

[demoremda]

but of course they exist, check your statistics

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Phobos
Bwahaha! Stolen another one!

Oh yeah ?!
Well, here's how small you are:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=9578
Check out the close-up ! That's a fish face at the lower left...

Originally posted by demoremda
but of course they exist, check your statistics

Yep Mentat, demoremda just gave you the sum-up.
No need to get dense here.

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by drag
Oh yeah ?!
Well, here's how small you are:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=9578

*LOL*
I'm not small, I'm just "way out there".
But hey, I'm bigger than the rock that killed the dinos!
Don't make me alter my trajectory!

 

[FZ+]

Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?

Ah... didn't really think about this one. Unless we take the most drastic interpretations of evolutionary convergence, it is far less likely that two populations were separately evolve to a similarity that would allow a reasonable form of communication.
But you never know...

 

[maximus]

Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?

what FZ+ said, but that's not to mention the difficulty created by the vastness of space, and the light-speed restriction on all information.

 

[maximus]

i'll do as mentat did and insert my opinions on the matter:

1)i agree that life may be possible on other planets, though a very slim chance.

2)i agree that this life may take a very alien form. (i.e. not like life on Earth in any respects.)

3)i think the chances of this life being "intelligent" (in our use of the word) is next to nil. our human intelligence is a result of a series of completely random genetic mutations which would practically never take place again in the universe.

4)i think this life might be so alien, we might not classify it as life. we need a wider definition of it.

5) the alien life form will definatly not be anything like ET or Star Wars or any other sci-fi characters that have two arms, two legs, two eyes, and green skin.

6) i wonder, would an alien life form still follow the evolutionary process, or not? initially, i'd say not, but that might be becuase we can't understand what other process it could take.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Good one Phobos !

Originally posted by FZ+
Ah... didn't really think about this one. Unless we take the most drastic interpretations of evolutionary convergence, it is far less likely that two populations were separately evolve to a similarity that would allow a reasonable form of communication.
But you never know...

I do not think that is entirely correct. If they are
intellegent than they will have to have a pretty evolved
perspective on the world, however, that perspective will be
the result of the world - guided and shaped by its apparent
principles. Hence, some simularities and common points
of reference will have to exist.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Tail]

First of all, 'life' needs to be defined. Because the chance that there are human-like beings somewhere else is pretty slim, but the chance of silicon-based life being somewhere out there might be more possible. So, what is life?

Another thing is, the universe being 'infinite' (in some dimensions), or containing an infinite amount of stars and planets (unlikely, or do it seems...) doesn't mean life MUST exist somewhere else besides here. Like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... ... n is infinite, but no two numbers are alike.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by Tail
First of all, 'life' needs to be defined. Because the chance that there are human-like beings somewhere else is pretty slim, but the chance of silicon-based life being somewhere out there might be more possible. So, what is life?

you are repeating others. (me mainly!)

Another thing is, the universe being 'infinite' (in some dimensions), or containing an infinite amount of stars and planets (unlikely, or do it seems...) doesn't mean life MUST exist somewhere else besides here. Like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... ... n is infinite, but no two numbers are alike.

well, the universe is not infinite. but if it were you'd be right. life on other planets would be inevitable.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Welcome to PF Tail !

Originally posted by Tail
Another thing is, the universe being 'infinite' (in some dimensions), or containing an infinite amount of stars and planets (unlikely, or do it seems...) doesn't mean life MUST exist somewhere else besides here. Like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... ... n is infinite, but no two numbers are alike.

I think maximus slightly misunderstood you. I do not think
you're right here. In math numbers are defined to represent
different amounts, for example, and they can indeed be infinite
and different. In an infinite Universe all that needs to be done
for life to form is for the availible materials to mix in certain
general ways so it's not reasonable for it not to happen in infinity.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Tail]

Originally posted by drag
Greetings !

Welcome to PF Tail !

Thanks!

I think maximus slightly misunderstood you. I do not think
you're right here. In math numbers are defined to represent
different amounts, for example, and they can indeed be infinite
and different. In an infinite Universe all that needs to be done
for life to form is for the availible materials to mix in certain
general ways so it's not reasonable for it not to happen in infinity.

Good point! I'm not sure what to say...


maximus-
I'm sorry, I just rushed through the posts without reading them carefully. I won't do that anymore.

And, as drag pointed out, you misunderstood my second point a bit...

 

[Kagmi]

I think that there is almost certainly life in our Universe other than on Earth, and there is a good chance that there is at least one other intellegent species. However, knowing what we do about the laws of physics, it is highly unlikely that we'll contact each other within the next thousand years or so because of the vast distances between stars (as of yet I wouldn't even consider intergalactic communication). Even if there is intellegent life close enough to contact us before that, it is quite possibly so different from terrestrial life that there might be serious communication difficulties. Obviously, since we don't know of any extraterrestrial life, no one can be sure just how different from Earth's life it could be. Unless faster than light travel is invented by one of the civilizations, any contact at all is unlikely, and visitations even less so.

 

[demoremda]

We should consider that in an infinite universe everything is possible , there could even be (im not religious) a god floating around somewhere bothering his tiny creations
If you look at the vastness of space it would be arrogant to say we are the only ones to exist while on the Earth alone more than 60 millions species live





in the abundance of water the fool gets thirsty
Bob Marley

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by demoremda
We should consider that in an infinite universe everything is possible , there could even be (im not religious) a god floating around somewhere bothering his tiny creations

this is true. the problem is our universe is not infinite in size.

If you look at the vastness of space it would be arrogant to say we are the only ones to exist while on the Earth alone more than 60 millions species live

the fact that there are so many species on Earth is irrelevant. we could not isolate one species. and at one point we were all the same.

 

[demoremda]

Originally posted by maximus
this is true. the problem is our universe is not infinite in size.

mmm altough I am not schooled proffesionally in physics i don't believe in boundaries, i understand part of the infinite finite models but i can't help feel our knowledge just doesn't cut it yet in comprehensing everything that's out there


the fact that there are so many species on Earth is irrelevant. we could not isolate one species. and at one point we were all the same.

I do see this as a major fact, as well as the fact that most of our universe is hydrogen, but i don't understand what you mean with isolating one species, what has that to do whith other races?
i enjoy the discussion though


remember moneo, when i told you why eternity couldn't be proven?
yes you said no one would live long enough to prove it.
-Emperor Leto II-

 

[demoremda]

mmm haven't figuered the the way to work whith the font types

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by demoremda
I do see this as a major fact, as well as the fact that most of our universe is hydrogen, but i don't understand what you mean with isolating one species, what has that to do whith other races?
i enjoy the discussion though

what i mean is that each species on Earth is not a separate miracle of its own. life was not createda and evolved for each. we were all the same life at one point,but evolution steered us into different directions.

 

[cytokinesis]

If I may borrow from Michio Kaku as well, I'd like to bring up the point he made about how if there were intelligent life, it wouldn't necessarily be within Earth's lifespan. There may have already been an alien life form or two that passed by Earth on an interstellar mission of some sort, but we were just forming unicellular organisms so they didn't bother, and by the time we became advanced enough to observe our universe, they had already died out.

 

[q-nought]

I believe there is life out there, what form it might take and if its possible to communicate with it just complicates an already complicated issue.

When contemplating this question you have to make assumptions, let's assume humans are average in all respects, not evolutionally retarded or advanced, of average intelligence and so on. With no way of knowing how advanced human progress will ever reach (totally telepathic, able to control all aspects of the environment etc etc etc) we must assume we are in a stage of technological and evolutionary infancy otherwise this is as good as it may ever get. Take the age of the Universe and our current stage of human progress (assume infancy), and it would seem likely if we are average then there is little hope of ever having contact with another intelligent life form before the Universe comes to its own end (however that may be) if we agree that the speed of light is the limiting factor in the ability to communicate.

If faster than light communication or some type of time travel or instant method of transportation is discovered and developed then the chances of interaction with another totally separate form of life (or even simialr form of life) may increase slightly above what it is now, but not by too many factors only because of the distances involved. Its like buying one lottery ticket or one thousand lottery tickets, even with one thousand tickets your odds of winning are next to nothing. We have to find a way of reducing the odds to be able to find other life or have them find us.

Nuff said

 

[maximus]

could life be created outside of a planet? like in a nebula or protostar cloud for instance?

 

[cytokinesis]

that seems to me to be a greatly overlooked yet surprisingly possible suggestion.

 

[demoremda]

Originally posted by maximus
what i mean is that each species on Earth is not a separate miracle of its own. life was not createda and evolved for each. we were all the same life at one point,but evolution steered us into different directions.

Yes off course that's true, that doesn't mean it couldn't be different on other worlds, or that the same evolution path occurs, that's the random beauty of the universe
For a good story on interstellar communication (sf but well thought out) yall should read Greg Bears anvil of stars

 

[PhysicsRocks88]

Originally posted by Viper
Do you think that they will ever contact us or vice versa?
I can`t believe that with all the Trillions of planets there are there is not one planet with remotely the same conditions or atmosphere of earth?

The errors in this statement are unbelievable!

1. The process of thinking never takes place while someone is producing an answer to this question. It is merely accessing already existing data and producing it, not THINKING.

2. Who is "they" and who is "us". Some organisms on Earth did not come from non-life on our Earth - they came from outerspace. Humans posess a collection of life that came from outspace to Earth via meteors.

3. "trillions" of planets? Who provided you with this number?

4. You say you can't believe not another planet has remotely our conditions. In fact scientists have identified MANY planets that have our same make-up.