Am I a Sinner in God's Eyes Despite My Good Deeds?

[Saint]

In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Saint


In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

It is the trick to brainwashing you, to start out by making you feel worthless. That makes it easier to force you to accept anything you are told.

 

[FZ+]

Depends on your interpretation of the Bible.

My Reverse Pascal's Wager: Seriously, just live life as you feel it should be lived, without regrrets. If God is good, then He will forgive you. If God isn't, then you are screwed anyway.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Saint
Is that Just/Fair ?

For most people, no, but we're making an exception in your case.

 

[Hurkyl]

It certainly is fair.

Note to Zero: your atheistic bigotry consistently blinds you to the possibility that any religous idea can have merit in the secular world. For example, note that in our justice system you can't, pardon the expression, get away with murder just because you did a few good deeds.


In our mortal justice system, you do bad and you get punished. God, however, delays the punishment, giving you a chance to correct your behavior and seek forgiveness for your mistakes. You need to strive to be an all around good person, not to do enough good things to neutralize your bad.

 

[FZ+]

I think the problem isn't that but rather there is eternal punishment for a system of laws that you may not even know, and the rather dare I say it, materialist idea of two wrongs make a right inherent in the idea of punishment. Why should moral action be motivated by fear?

 

[Zero]

The whole thing is nonsense...a supposedly perfect creator created a seriously flawed creation, and then blames the creation. Like I said, it is a scam, perpetuated by people racked with self-loathing, and promoted by those who want to keep the sheep in line.

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
It certainly is fair.

I fail to see how eternal damnation* is fair for any sin or combination of sins. The punishment is out of proportion to the crime.

* I suppose we would need to define this though since it means different things to different religions.

 

[Hurkyl]

I was referring specifically to the topic of whether or not it was fair that one's good actions don't "neutralize" one's bad actions. Other topics are, well, other topics.



But since the thread has already been hijacked...

Why should moral action be motivated by fear?

Why do you think it (always) is? Some people act morally because it's the "right" thing to do, and in a perfect world so would all people.

Anyways, even if you don't believe religion, such a concept certainly has societal value because it discourages illegal behaviour that would otherwise go unnoticed by the justice system.

I fail to see how eternal damnation* is fair for any sin or combination of sins. The punishment is out of proportion to the crime.

Is it? The crime isn't merely the sins committed, but one's unwillingness to act rightously. Forgivness for your sins is easy to get, at least in Christianity.

 

[Zero]

Good deeds don't matter...sucking up to the Man is what counts. All you have to do is give up your dignity and humanity, and you are just fine!

 

[Hurkyl]

All this talk about dignity coming from someone using a bloody face for an avatar...

Anyways, do you enjoy beating strawmen?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
All this talk about dignity coming from someone using a bloody face for an avatar...

Anyways, do you enjoy beating strawmen?

No, I enjoy beating people...with sticks...



What does that have to do with anything? Can I help it if I find all the Christian 'sinner' and 'forgiveness' thing to be similar to Wayne and Garth bowing and whining 'We're not worthy! We're not worthy!'?

 

[Hurkyl]

As I said, you're beating strawmen.

 

[Saint]

I admit that i am sinner. Ok, i can agree that the sin i committed deserves punishment, but is that justful to be Eternal Torment?
How about the good I did, where is the rewards? Why not Eternal Reward too?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
As I said, you're beating strawmen.

Then show me the argument I should be hitting, if you would be so kind.

 

[FZ+]

Why do you think it (always) is? Some people act morally because it's the "right" thing to do, and in a perfect world so would all people.

I am commenting that the existence of a heaven/hell, and a retributive style of justice (ie. eye for an eye) is somewhat incongruous with the more modern new-testament image as God being (a) fair, (b) fundamentally good, (c) desiring of free will.

 

[Hurkyl]

Then show me the argument I should be hitting, if you would be so kind.

Something relating to the poster's topic would be nice, discussing the idea that good acts should "neutralize" bad acts. Even if you can't bring yourself to speak within a religous context, it's still an interesting question for secular morality / justice, and responding along those lines would certainly be better than slander. When is slander ever an appropriate response anyways?

 

[Hurkyl]

I admit that i am sinner. Ok, i can agree that the sin i committed deserves punishment, but is that justful to be Eternal Torment?
How about the good I did, where is the rewards? Why not Eternal Reward too?

If you're sorry you sinned and ask God for forgiveness, you do get Eternal Reward.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
Something relating to the poster's topic would be nice, discussing the idea that good acts should "neutralize" bad acts. Even if you can't bring yourself to speak within a religous context, it's still an interesting question for secular morality / justice, and responding along those lines would certainly be better than slander. When is slander ever an appropriate response anyways?

You should point out the slander as well...unless I am slandering a mythological figure, in which case I invite it to appear in court to sue me...

The Christian viewpoint starts with the premise that people are loathsome and worthless. You start out negative, and nothing you do can change it. Plus, also according to Christianity, you are culpable for the actions of your parents. Such a standpoint is ethically reprehensible, and cannot be defended by any stretch of theology or logic that I have come across.

But, of course, you can get out of it by grovelling to the very creator who created you to be worthless and loathsome to begin with. Kissing butt isn't a great basis for ethical judgment either.

 

[Hurkyl]

Yay, again with the off topic strawman beating.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
Yay, again with the off topic strawman beating.

LOL, is it really? You could try facing what I say, instead of posting 'strawman' and leaving it at that. Where is my strawman, and what would be the correct 'man' to attack?

 

[Laser Eyes]

Originally posted by Saint


In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

The Bible message is that God does indeed look at the good you do and take it into consideration: "For God is not unjust to forget your work" - Hebrews 6:10

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
The Bible message is that God does indeed look at the good you do and take it into consideration: "For God is not unjust to forget your work" - Hebrews 6:10

Good answer! Not a lot of Christians think that means anything, but good answer!

 

[Saint]

Originally posted by Zero
Good answer! Not a lot of Christians think that means anything, but good answer!

Zero, you misunderstood!
That bible verse only refers to the good done by christians for the sake of Christ, excluding whatever compatible good done by unbelievers.

 

[Laser Eyes]

Zero, you misunderstood!
That bible verse only refers to the good done by christians for the sake of Christ, excluding whatever compatible good done by unbelievers.

It is not really limited to work done by Christians excluding good things done by unbelievers. Here is the verse in full:

"For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister." - Hebrews 6:10

You have to remember that the Bible often speaks in illustrations and general principles that you have to take and apply to other situations. The point is that God sees all things that happen on Earth and he remembers them. He sees the bad things that we do and the good things that we do, not just Christians but all people. There are many sciptures which indicate this. If you don't think the verse above shows that God takes the good things people do into account try these:

"The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good." - Proverbs 15:3

"For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil." - Ecclesiastes 12:14

"And there is no creature hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." - Hebrews 4:13

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Saint
Zero, you misunderstood!
That bible verse only refers to the good done by christians for the sake of Christ, excluding whatever compatible good done by unbelievers.

Well, no, I think I understand completely...it isn't the good deed that counts, it is the su8cking up to Jesus that counts.

 

[megashawn]

I admit that i am sinner. Ok, i can agree that the sin i committed deserves punishment, but is that justful to be Eternal Torment?
How about the good I did, where is the rewards? Why not Eternal Reward too?

Its kinda like car insurance. You can pay your bill on time for 5 years strait, and not get a good mark on your credit report. You miss one payment and you get a bad mark reported.

To me, Saint, what your asking is a good ground to disbelieve the nonsense that christianity preaches. For example:

"The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good." - Proverbs 15:3

"For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil." - Ecclesiastes 12:14

"And there is no creature hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." - Hebrews 4:13

The first two, Proverbs 15:3 and Ecclesiastes 12:14 come from the old testament. As I understand the workings of christianity, when jesus died for our sins on the cross, he created a method for us to come into the glory of god, regardless of our deeds. All one must do is truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. This is the ticket into heaven, as I've understood.

Now this also makes you come to a problem, in that, a truly horrific person could get into heaven. Think about it, someday we could be playing volleyball in heaven with Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer, so long as they believe christ died for there sins.

If you dig deep enough eventually you will find so many problems that you just say to hell with it all.

My philosphy, If you can't be good, be good at it. Don't worry about pleasing some entity that can't take the time to prove to every single man and woman on Earth that he exists. If the afterlife is eternal, then we've got plenty of time to worry about it then. If some god choses to send me to hell for me living my life the way I have, then I'd probably have preferred to been there anyhow.

Besides, the way I see it, all the cool ppl are going to be in hell anyhow.

 

[Saint]

Initially the OT says that God will judge us based on our deeds, good and bad. For the bad we did, we will get punished "accordingly", for the good we did, we will get rewarded "accordingly" too; however, when it comes to NT, especially Revelation, the people are just separated into goats and sheep, the goats go to hell and the sheep go to heaven.

So, there is totally no Reward for the good done by the goats!
Is this the justice of God ?

Christians say that God can not tolerate even a little sin, so the unpardoned sinners must be banished from his face.
But, not believing in Jesus does not mean I am wicked, unrepenting! I could believe in other religions and do even better than the so-called christians. Anyway, christianity says that I can not be saved through my good deeds, no matter how hard I try!
It turns out to be I MUST ACCEPT JESUS as my Savior!
This sounds spooky to me, because I am FORCED to believe, it is CHOICE OF NO CHOICE.

 

[Saint]

Another thing, my pastor said, when we sin, we sin against God, we break his laws.

My confusion is, is there a God in the first place, and, if there is a God, I can't do anything good to benefit him, nor can i do anything bad to harm him; so, why my wrongdoing is sinning against God and must be punished eternally ?

[?]

 

[Sunfist]

Originally posted by Saint
Christians say that God can not tolerate even a little sin, so the unpardoned sinners must be banished from his face.
But, not believing in Jesus does not mean I am wicked, unrepenting! I could believe in other religions and do even better than the so-called christians. Anyway, christianity says that I can not be saved through my good deeds, no matter how hard I try!
It turns out to be I MUST ACCEPT JESUS as my Savior!
This sounds spooky to me, because I am FORCED to believe, it is CHOICE OF NO CHOICE.

Well, of course they would have to tell you that. If they didn't, then you might go to a different religion. Remember, they are trying to get as many converts as possible. They aren't going to allow you to think that you could worship at a different church.

 

[Saint]

Christians not only try to convert you, sometimes, when they know you are from different church that they do not agree, they will pursuade you to transfer to their church!

 

[Zero]

Here's a little hint: if a religion or ideology makes you feel bad, ignore it, and find another one. Take what is useful to you, and discard the rest.

 

[Sunfist]

That's the path I began about two years ago. I used to be a pretty strict Methodist Christian. Now, I feel like I have become more. My parents would argue that I have "lost the way" and now I'm not a "true Christian". But, I argue this: I was a "true Christian" when I was 13. There is no way I could be whatever I am at this point when I was 13. Isn't that something greater? I feel like Christianity was a fine springboard, but not the end of my journey.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Sunfist
That's the path I began about two years ago. I used to be a pretty strict Methodist Christian. Now, I feel like I have become more. My parents would argue that I have "lost the way" and now I'm not a "true Christian". But, I argue this: I was a "true Christian" when I was 13. There is no way I could be whatever I am at this point when I was 13. Isn't that something greater? I feel like Christianity was a fine springboard, but not the end of my journey.

Yeah...it is easy to claim to have a final answer. Easy, but false. You are not teh same person you were a year ago, and a year from now you will be different. Why would there be a single answer for you, for your whole life?

 

[Sunfist]

I agree! This is a goofy analogy, but you know how sometimes old people still dress like they did three decades ago? It's sort of like that. It's like people get to a point and they say, "Okay, that's all I need. Time to turn off the brain, stop thinking, and just coast out the end of my life." I have not reached that point.

 

[Saint]

Do you think the judgement in the book of Revelation is Incrimination or Fair judgement ?

If I did wrong, i offended people, not God. I can allow the people i hurt to punish me, but not God.

 

[Sunfist]

Honestly, I tend to not put a whole ton of stock in that book. Remember, it was a guy who had a dream and then woke up and wrote it down. Some would argue that since it's in the Bible then it has to be correct do to God's influence, but I'm not going to.

Plus, you simply cannot take one line, or even one book, from the Bible and obsess over it. You have to get an understanding of the whole thing. I think that's the point.

 

[jagger]

Saint, you are not a sinner, you may have sinned, but you are not a sinner.

 

[Hurkyl]

Here's a little hint: if a religion or ideology makes you feel bad, ignore it, and find another one. Take what is useful to you, and discard the rest.

I must advise against this. Remorse is, in general, a healthy emotion, both on the individual level and the societal level.

Before discarding something that makes you feel bad (be it a religion, an ethical standard, or anything really), be sure that it's not an unhealthy feeling.

 

[lazydrock]

Kissing butt is the only way to go, according to some of you. Or should I say that kissing God's butt gets you into heaven. Ha. You know nothing. If you evaluated the life of the average true believer, I say true believer cause many people who go to church are not Christians, you will find that they treat God like crap. The Bible has passages and passages of what to do and not to do. By denying certain ones or disobeying them, in the Christian faith, you deny God's presence. So it is not a matter of kissing up it is a matter do doing what is right, morally right. Something that many philosophers of past and present agree. Aristotle believed that one shoudl not offend others when speak but that was hundreds of years ago. So look at Kenneth Burke, a communications theorist, and a non-believer, who had the same belief as Aristotle, not to mention he used God or an example of God in his theories to explain good verse evil.

Here is a question for you. Do you believe in a god?

 

[nautica]

Originally posted by lazydrock
Do you believe in a god?

What does that have to do with anything? Satan, himself, believes in God.

Nautica

 

[lazydrock]

Not the God of the Christian faith. But a god.

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by Zero
The whole thing is nonsense...a supposedly perfect creator created a seriously flawed creation, and then blames the creation.

I certainly would agree...if that were true, Zero. Actually, the Perfect Creator created a perfect creation [complete with the ability to choose not to believe He exists]. Unfortunately, with the "help"/trickery of the enemy of this Perfect Creator, the Earth's first inhabitants[part of the perfect creation], surrendered their beautiful home...to the enemy. The rest is...ahem...we know it too well...and live it every day.

CJ

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by Phobos
I fail to see how eternal damnation* is fair for any sin or combination of sins. The punishment is out of proportion to the crime.

That is entirely logical. And you would have proof from the Bible that that is true. Careful study of that Book also would clarify why humans are sinners...or breakers of the Perfect Creator's laws.

CJ

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by Saint


In my life, I did wrong, as well as good.
So far, I am not as bad as a criminal who breaks the law, commit killing, robbing and other felony.

But the bible condemns that I am Sinner, and the good that i did seems have no value to neutralise my wrong, even for a few percent!

Is that Just/Fair ?

The Bible presents an even stranger scenario:
the Perfect Creator[ the One declaring humans to be sinners, via human language & humans]dying, as a human, one of the most horrible deaths one could conceive, having lived a life of doing nothing but good, so His sinful creation[who chose to to act on the suggestion of the Perfect Creator's enemy] would not have to be wiped out eternally [different from being tortured eternally for sin].

Is That just/fair?

CJ

 

[caribjewel]

Originally posted by FZ+
I think the problem isn't that but rather there is eternal punishment for a system of laws that you may not even know, and the rather dare I say it, materialist idea of two wrongs make a right inherent in the idea of punishment. Why should moral action be motivated by fear?

Your points make perfect sense.
1. The Bible makes it plain that all the Perfect Creator's laws will be made known to all[Matt 24:14].

2.Moral action that is encouraged by the Perfect Creator is not motivated by fear[I John4:17].

 

[Moonbear]

Initially the OT says that God will judge us based on our deeds, good and bad. For the bad we did, we will get punished "accordingly", for the good we did, we will get rewarded "accordingly" too; however, when it comes to NT, especially Revelation, the people are just separated into goats and sheep, the goats go to hell and the sheep go to heaven.

So, there is totally no Reward for the good done by the goats!
Is this the justice of God ?

Christians say that God can not tolerate even a little sin, so the unpardoned sinners must be banished from his face.
But, not believing in Jesus does not mean I am wicked, unrepenting! I could believe in other religions and do even better than the so-called christians. Anyway, christianity says that I can not be saved through my good deeds, no matter how hard I try!
It turns out to be I MUST ACCEPT JESUS as my Savior!
This sounds spooky to me, because I am FORCED to believe, it is CHOICE OF NO CHOICE.

Anyone who has ever been on a farm would recognize the distinction between goats and sheep has nothing to do with sin. Goats are individuals, they do their own thing (much to the consternation of the farmer trying to keep track of them), leaders if you will. Sheep are followers, they stick with the flock, just do whatever the group does without thinking about it. So all that statement says is they are trying to persuade you to be a follower, with the threat of eternal damnation if, gasp, you should start to think for yourself. That's because religion and fear of god has long been used as a means for dictators (or kings...or the pope) to maintain their power over the people, by convincing them they are appointed by this so-called god and if the people don't follow their arbitrary laws and actually stop to think about how arbitrary they are, then they will be punished with eternal suffering.

So, indeed, you do have a choice. Be a goat and realize nothing is going to happen because everything in the Bible is an elaborate fiction. Religious organizations control a great deal of wealth and political power, and the leaders of those religions, who profit the most from the comforts afforded by this wealth and power, will say or do anything to keep their followers in line and continuing to tithe over their hard-earned money.

If you just can't part with the notion that religion is real, then at least stop beating yourself up about sinning. You say you're not as bad as a criminal, so your sin isn't something that is considered a crime. I don't know if all Christian religions are like this, but in Catholicism, sins are divided up by severity. Some are easy to repent. Pretty much if you regret it and confess to it and make some amends for it, it's forgiven. Others are much more egregious and will pretty much damn you to hell. But those are pretty serious, and unless it's gluttony, most of those will land you in jail one way or another if you really are committing something that bad. But even with the 7 deadly sins, those really are talking about extremes and repeatedly doing the same thing over and over and not being sorry for it. With the gluttony example, it's not considered a sin to pig out at your Christmas dinner. However, it would be a sin if you were 300 lbs and hoarding all the food in the house for you and only you while your kids were going hungry. But, then our basic moral code would say this is wrong too.

This leaves a question that I sometimes ponder. Is our moral code based on religious laws, or are religious laws based on some innate moral code intended for species survival?

 

[Loren Booda]

A sinner is someone with a purpose - to be improved, not damned. A God, without sin, is above scapegoating sinners by eternal damnation. Given free will, people do more to damn each other than general adherence to God's laws would.

 

[Janitor]

If I may ask a question-

I can kind of understand how Christians get out of the Old Testament commandment to atone for your human sins by killing an animal of this or that type and burning it on an altar. But how do modern Jews get out of doing that? To the best of my knowledge, Jewish people, even in Israel, are not fulfilling that part of The Law in the year 2004.

 

[ProtractedSilence]

I have not read the history on this post, I am answering Janitor's last question:

The Jews stopped doing animal sacrifices when their temples was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70. They reasoned that no temple = no sacrifice.

Personally, I don't get it. Their temple had been destroyed twice before and they built it back. Before they had a temple, they had a movable tent where they made the sacrifices. It was only begrudgingly that God permitted them to build a temple in the first place. Seems like rebuilding the temple or going back to a tent should have allowed them to fulfill their law.

I think the Christian position makes a lot of sense, that the OT animal sacrifice was supposed to be symbolic - to show people that their sins did need a payment in blood. But that the real sacrifice that would permantly take care of this issue was the one Christ made - on Friday of Passover week (when the lamb would be slaughtered in the OT rite), and that when it happened the veil inside the temple that separated the Holy of Holies (where God resided) from the rest of the temple was torn in two...showing that there was no more separation between the people and GOd that needed a priest to sacrifice...that Christ became the mediator and had paid for sin once and for all.