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  • #226
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The wrong treatment out of the gate, http://www.webmd.com/news/20070319/antibiotics-overused-sinusitis?src=RSS_PUBLIC"

10 treatments that are overused. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07294/826908-68.stm" [Broken]. I used this website since I could not get the consumers report link this was based off to show without paying a subscription for archived articles.

Operations that are unnecessary http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/index.html" [Broken]

These are several of the ones that I could find that were not biased. As for where else I'm getting my facts from is from several EMT/Paramedics one who happens to be my girlfriend. So I guess it would be hard to link those conversations on their professional options.

No offence, but your EMT friend's are not qualified to speak about this. Neither am I, neither are you. Medical doctors are, and this is a question best answered by Moonbear. It's nice having a real doctor around here.
 
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  • #227
Argentum Vulpes
I forgot to comment on this part. Basically, I see no evidence that using herbal medicine does anything.
So when there is a new drug out on the horizon that is showing potential, or some new drug formulation to do something beneficial we should disregard it because it is in the research phase of its development? I see a viewpoint that leads to stagnation, and in the medical profession of treating bacteria/virus tantamount to surrender. As for the research status of these herbal/botanical treatments, I'm going off about year old knowledge because it is late and I do not feel like plowing through multiple pages of websites to separate the wheat from the chafe. My point is still valid that herbal/botanical treatments still have a place in modern medicine.

No offence, but your EMT friend's are not qualified to speak about this. Neither am I, neither are you. Medical doctors are, and this is a question best answered by Moonbear. It's nice having a real doctor around here.
Ok so someone who works closely with medical doctors, and who is just as qualified to treat sick and injured people has no place talking about medical practices? I'm at a loss for polite words. Also if you want to refute my points get some articles from accepted non biased sources up or get Moonbear over here. I have yet to see you post any hard evidence. I've done that by posting the names common and Latin of several herbal/botanicals that have shown their potential, and by providing the links to the articles proving my point.

Please stop arguing in hyperbole, which if I remember was what got you in a lather in the first place.
 
  • #228
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So when there is a new drug out on the horizon that is showing potential, or some new drug formulation to do something beneficial we should disregard it because it is in the research phase of its development?
Did I say this? No, I did not.

I see a viewpoint that leads to stagnation, and in the medical profession of treating bacteria/virus tantamount to surrender. As for the research status of these herbal/botanical treatments, I'm going off about year old knowledge because it is late and I do not feel like plowing through multiple pages of websites to separate the wheat from the chafe. My point is still valid that herbal/botanical treatments still have a place in modern medicine............
............if they work.


Ok so someone who works closely with medical doctors, and who is just as qualified to treat sick and injured people has no place talking about medical practices? I'm at a loss for polite words.
Nope, a Doctor is qualified to make a statement if a patient needs an operation or medicine. An EMT is not qualified to do this. I don't go down to my local EMT and ask them for medical advice.

Also if you want to refute my points get some articles from accepted non biased sources up or get Moonbear over here. I have yet to see you post any hard evidence.
.....because I've made no claims that require evidence. You, on the other hand, did make the claim that medical doctors overprescribe medicines and procedures like 'an atomic bomb' to swat a fly. That is a slap in the face of the medical community that requires a hell of a lot of evidence.

You're trying to do the exact same thing creationsist do. "See, science cant answer this question, therefore all of it is wrong."

In your case, "See, I found one article about using a proceedure too much, all procedures are used too much". It doesnt work that way.
 
  • #229
Ivan Seeking
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No offence, but your EMT friend's are not qualified to speak about this. Neither am I, neither are you. Medical doctors are, and this is a question best answered by Moonbear. It's nice having a real doctor around here.
Just to be clear, Moonbear is a Biologist, not an M.D.
 
  • #230
Ivan Seeking
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Did you? From reading your posts it comes across as you think herbal and naturopathic remedies are on the same level as snake oil.
It is one thing to say that herbal and naturapathic remedies are worthy of study, but it is quite another to argue that people should self-medicate with untested drugs - and they are drugs if they do anything at all! He is not selling herbal remedies, he is selling the idea of self-medicating on an experimental basis as an option to proven medicine. So even if he is promoting herbal remedies that work, he's still a crackpot because of the context. At best it is playing Russian roulette with your health. At worst it is a waste of money, a scam, and dangerous.

If you had pneumonia, would you eat moldy bread, or would you get shot of penicillin? Is one the same as the other?
 
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  • #231
Argentum Vulpes
Did I say this? No, I did not.
In effect you did. Are you also aware that:

Three quarters of plants that provide active ingredients for prescription drugs came to the attention of researchers because of their use in traditional medicine. http://www.scitopics.com/Drug_Discovery_and_Development_Traditional_Medicine_and_Ethnopharmacology_Perspectives.html" [Broken]

Among the 120 active compounds currently isolated from the higher plants and widely used in modern medicine today, 80 percent show a positive correlation between their modern therapeutic use and the traditional use of the plants from which they are derived. http://www.jstor.org/pss/3434847"

At least 7,000 medical compounds in the modern pharmaceuticals are derived from plants. http://www.ienica.net/reports/ienicafinalsummaryreport2000-2005.pdf"

............if they work.
Above says that they do.



Nope, a Doctor is qualified to make a statement if a patient needs an operation or medicine. An EMT is not qualified to do this. I don't go down to my local EMT and ask them for medical advice.
I hope you can get a doctor out in the field to help you or make it to the ER then if you ever have a medical emergency then having an EMT/paramedic show up, because they are clearly unqualified when it comes to medical procedures.


.....because I've made no claims that require evidence. You, on the other hand, did make the claim that medical doctors overprescribe medicines and procedures like 'an atomic bomb' to swat a fly. That is a slap in the face of the medical community that requires a hell of a lot of evidence.

You're trying to do the exact same thing creationsist do. "See, science cant answer this question, therefore all of it is wrong."

In your case, "See, I found one article about using a proceedure too much, all procedures are used too much". It doesnt work that way.
Your constant clams that herbal/botanical remedies have no place in todays medical world, when you stated that they are "Kool Aid".

Yet you have no problem with slapping other professionals in the face. Also when did I state that science was not able to answer a question, therefore we should throw out the baby with the bath water. I have on several occasions said that science was able to do things better then the old ways, however we should not use the "big guns" right off the bat when there are less evasive ways, and many times cheaper ways to treat the problem. It was three articles all based off separate reports, two of them talked about 10 and 5 procedures done too much. For a grand total of 8 procures that required surgery. As I said they were the unbiased ones I could find with out having to plow through a bunch of websites, and reports based off the primary article.

Finally I find this incredibly humorous, you are defending the large pharmaceuticals/insurance companies. What would your liberal brethren of the 60s and 70s have to say about you defending "The Man"?
 
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  • #232
Argentum Vulpes
It is one thing to say that herbal and naturapathic remedies are worthy of study, but it is quite another to argue that people should self-medicate with untested drugs - and they are drugs if they do anything at all! He is not selling herbal remedies, he is selling the idea of self-medicating on an experimental basis as an option to proven medicine. So even if he is promoting herbal remedies that work, he's still a crackpot because of the context. At best it is playing Russian roulette with your health. At worst it is a waste of money, a scam, and dangerous.

If you had pneumonia, would you eat moldy bread, or would you get shot of penicillin? Is one the same as the other?
I'm not saying that you should go out and self medicate. You have no way of knowing if you are getting the right thing to help you or if the dosage is correct. Also I completely agree that using untested drugs is like playing Russian roulette with a semi automatic and wet ammo. What I am saying is the herbal/botanical medicine should not be dismissed because it is not the newest wonder drug put out by Merck, Pfizer, etc. Also people who have studied and gotten an P.h.D. in herbal/botanical treatment should not be called a crackpot just because they think the modern medical community is too happy to bring out the "big guns" out of the gate, when something else would work.
 
  • #233
Ivan Seeking
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I'm not saying that you should go out and self medicate. You have no way of knowing if you are getting the right thing to help you or if the dosage is correct. Also I completely agree that using untested drugs is like playing Russian roulette with a semi automatic and wet ammo. What I am saying is the herbal/botanical medicine should not be dismissed because it is not the newest wonder drug put out by Merck, Pfizer, etc. Also people who have studied and gotten an P.h.D. in herbal/botanical treatment should not be called a crackpot just because they think the modern medical community is too happy to bring out the "big guns" out of the gate, when something else would work.
I do agree with that...at least in principle. Many medicines find their origins in herbal treatments and remedies recognized by primitive cultures. Consider for example, aspirin.

The Story:
The effects of aspirin-like substances have been known since the ancient Romans recorded the use of the willow bark as a fever fighter. The leaves and bark of the willow tree contain a substance called salicin, a naturally occurring compound similar to acetylsalicylic acid, the chemical name for aspirin.

Even as far back as 400 B.C. Hippocrates recommended a tea made from yellow leaves. It wasn't until the 1800's that scientists discovered what was in the willow tree that relieved pain and reduced fever. The substance was named salicylic acid. But when people suffering from pain took the salicylic acid, it caused sever stomach and mouth irritation.

In 1832, a thirty-seven-year-old French chemist named Charles Gergardt mixed another chemical with the acid and produced good results, but the procedure was difficult and took a lot of time. Gerhardt decided the new compound wasn't practial, so he set aside.

Sixty-five-years later a German chemist, Felix Hoffmann, was searching for something to relieve his father's arthritis. He studied Gerhardt's experiments and "rediscovered" acetylsalicylic acid--or aspirin, as we now know it.
http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/aspirin.htm
 

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