Bianchi Identity-where did I go wrong?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Bianchi identities of the second kind in the context of tensor calculus, specifically focusing on the manipulation of these identities to derive a specific formula related to the Riemann tensor. Participants explore the implications of index manipulation and the conditions under which certain terms can be simplified or transformed.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a manipulation of the Bianchi identities, leading to a conclusion that seems incorrect, prompting a request for clarification on the steps taken.
  • Another participant points out that only "dummy" indices can be exchanged freely, indicating a potential error in the original manipulation.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about how to eliminate a variable in the divergence operation, suggesting there may be a missing formula or concept.
  • One participant challenges the validity of the formula the original poster is trying to prove, stating that Bel's result requires an additional factor of the Riemann tensor.
  • A later reply indicates that the participant has found a way to incorporate the additional tensor factor and outlines a new approach to the problem, including the use of antisymmetry in their calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; there are competing views regarding the validity of the manipulations and the conditions necessary to derive the desired formula. Some participants express uncertainty and seek clarification, while others challenge the assumptions made.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about index manipulation and the conditions under which certain terms can be simplified. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of tensor calculus concepts that may not be fully resolved.

zn5252
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hello ,
In the Bianchi Identities of the second kind, we have ∇a Rbcde + ∇b Rcade + ∇c Rabde ≡ 0
but since ∇c Rabde = - ∇c Rbade
we get :
∇a Rbcde + ∇b Rcade - ∇c Rbade = 0
in the last term, we exchange the c and the b indices and we would arrive at:
∇a Rbcde + ∇b Rcade - ∇b Rcade = 0
which leads to :
∇a Rbcde = 0 .
but this incorrect ? did I do something wrong ?
I would like actually to arrive at the formula :
2 ∇b Racde − ∇a Rbcde ≡ 0.

see formula 9 here from original Bel's article from 1938:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bp...ction+d'un+tenseur+du+quatrième+ordre;.langEN

and
(see formula 5 here : https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...9JJLhB&sig=AHIEtbRUONCiZUSV_8erdxK9YSMiouUrjA)Thanks,
cheers,
 
Last edited:
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in the last term, we exchange the c and the b indices
Only "dummy" indices can be freely changed like this, i.e. indices that are being summed over.
 
Thanks I see , I must have been on a rush to get to the formula.
My problem is then : how do i get rid of the last variable on which the divergence is acting I mean c ? is there a formula I must have have overlooked perhaps ?
 
I don't think what you're trying to prove is true. Bel's result follows only after he's multiplied by another factor of the Riemann tensor.
 
I see, now I think I found it . I have tried it out indeed with the additional tensor factor. it goes like this :
we have :
a Rbcde + ∇b Rcade + ∇c Rabde ≡ 0
multiply out by Rbcdf , we get :
Rbcdfa Rbcde + Rbcdfb Rcade + Rbcdfc Rabde ≡ 0

=>in the last term , we exchange the b and the c since now they are dummy indices I presume and in the second term, we use the antisymmetry of a and c:

Rbcdfa Rbcde - Rbcdfb Racde + Rcbdfb Racde = Rbcdfa Rbcde - 2 Rbcdfb Racde

Thank you.

PS : Sorry the Bel's article above is from 1958. I must have confused it with the article of Lanczos .
 
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